Actress Glenn Close on Finding Her Place in Hollywood

Show: FRESH AIR
Date: JUNE 06, 1997
Time: 12:00
Tran: 060601np.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: Michel Legrand
Sect: Entertainment
Time: 12:30

TERRY GROSS, HOST: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

The restored edition of the 1964 classic French film "The Umbrellas of Cherbourg" was released theatrically in America last year, and it was a revelation. Now, it's out on home video.

"Breathtaking" isn't too strong a word for the use of color in this film or for the music. All the dialogue is sung to music composed by Michel Legrand, who also composed the music for "Yentl," "The Summer of '42," and "The Thomas Crown Affair."

On this archive edition, we have an interview recorded with Legrand last year. The Umbrellas of Cherbourg was written and directed by the late Jacques Demis (ph), and it made a star of the young actress Catherine Deneuve.

Over the years, the colors had faded so badly, you'd never know what the film really looked like. The restoration shows the original color.

The film tells the story of two young lovers who are broken apart when the young man, Guy (ph), is drafted and sent to Algeria for two years. In this scene, the broken-hearted Genevieve, played by Deneuve, begs him not to leave her. He promises to love her for the rest of his life.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, SCENE FROM FILM "UMBRELLAS OF CHERBOURG")

ACTRESS CATHERINE DENEUVE, AS GENEVIEVE, SINGING IN FRENCH,

ACTOR AS GUY, SINGING IN FRENCH

GROSS: Michel Legrand, how did Jacques Demis first describe to you his idea of a movie in which all the dialogue would be sung?

MICHEL LEGRAND, COMPOSER: In a way, it went step by step, because Jacques came to me once with -- you know, because I've worked with him on two or three movies before. And he said -- we always spoke, him and I about, you know, doing a musical -- some musicals for the screen.

And one day, he came to me with a script called "The Infidelity of/ or the Umbrellas of Cherbourg." And he wanted to shoot it in black and white, like a normal movie.

So I read the script very carefully -- two, three, four times -- and then I came back to Jacques and I said: Jacques, I love it, but I think we should try to make a musical out of it. I said to him, you know, it would be maybe very interesting to do it as a musical.

Oh, Jacques said, -- eh, what a good idea. So we started to work. And first of all, we wanted to make it as a normal musical, with spoken parts and singing parts. And we wrote a song here -- we tried another song there.

And it never worked really well, because we had a big problem between the passage -- between what's spoken and what was sung. So, oh you know, today, it's impossible to really then -- people that talked normally, and suddenly we hear the background, you know, the strings coming, and say, ah, they're going to sing now.

And all this kind of old-fashioned, you know, sounds. We said, no, that's not for us. So we abandoned the project. I said no, I don't think it's a musical.

And a few months later, Jacques said you know, I have an idea. Because we have a problem brewing -- what's spoken and what's sung -- why don't we try to sing the entire movie? Like an opera, from beginning to end? Hey, hey -- I said, geeze, why not? So we started.

And it took us a couple of months to really try to find which style, because I remember, you know, I was working by myself at home, and I started to write some, you know...

GROSS: OK, let me stop here, because I want to get to the part about the style in a moment.

LEGRAND: Yeah.

GROSS: But first, I want to -- I'd like to know your reaction when Jacques Demis said: well, let's do it like an opera where everything...

LEGRAND: Yeah.

GROSS: ... is sung. Did you think: hey, what a great idea? Or did you think he was a little crazy?

LEGRAND: No, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, because Jacques wasn't a crazy man. No, no -- I said: do you know? Oh, I think it's a good idea. We should try it.

And then we tried, and I couldn't find -- because, you know, when I started to work on it, it was very complicated, you know, the classical, very modern classical music, and I said -- and Jacques and I, we said to ourselves that, you know, it should be -- if we do something like that, it should be -- music should be readable and understandable -- the first time -- Jacques said to me: it should be like a song -- one song from beginning to end.

GROSS: Mm-hmm.

LEGRAND: Like one aria -- one theme. Because he said, people are asked -- they have to understand it the first time they hear it. You know, so, I change -- you know, I change my mind. I change my pencil. And I tried, and finally we came up with what you know.

GROSS: Yeah, and it's jazz and ballads, and...

LEGRAND: Yeah, but -- most recently, it's melodic. You know...

GROSS: Very melodic.

LEGRAND: ... from beginning to end.

GROSS: Beautiful chords, also.

LEGRAND: Yeah, because, you know, we have, we -- you know, they exist, we'll have to use them.

GROSS: What's that?

LEGRAND: The chords -- I mean, you know, we have to use the chords, which are existing, so we used almost all of them.

GROSS: Now, in a lot of ways this -- in a lot of ways The Umbrellas of Cherbourg to me is like if -- if you made an ordinary life into an MGM musical and you took the sets of an MGM musical and combined that with the gas station on the corner, what would you get?

LEGRAND: Yeah.

GROSS: 'Cause it takes -- it takes the scenes of ordinary life and kind of elevates it to the beauty of an MGM musical. Was that what you both had in mind?

LEGRAND: No. We wanted to do a very ordinary story -- you know, the ordinary triangle, because you know this beautiful young girl, she does not wait for her lover to come back, and she marries someone else. At the same time, we wanted to use very ordinary, everyday language -- simple, very simple.

So the music had to be very melodic, but just like one song from beginning to end, you know. And then the color will be very exaggerated, so it will be like a -- it -- you know, it's a huge dream in a very ordinary life. This is what we wanted to -- we tried to achieve.

Not -- we never thought of American musical nor MGM nor anything. Just a French -- typical French story in a provincial town with simple people -- beautiful people, but simple.

GROSS: Now, was the dialogue written first? Did Demis give you the dialogue and say OK, now you can compose a score around it?

LEGRAND: Yeah. Because Jacques, you know, originally had written the dialogue and everything, since, you know, since Demis wanted to shoot it as a normal movie, without music, without, you know, singing.

And so we took scene by scene, and up, you know, I come up with a tempo, with a melody. And then we would change, in every scene, we'd change all the dialogue. I say, Jacques, no -- here I want da, da, da, da, da, da, da. So, we adapted every scene.

And then he put one syllable under every note that I was proposing to him. So we worked almost, you know, we worked both together from beginning to end.

GROSS: Now, I'm wondering if it was difficult for you to set the scenes that aren't the more romantic or disillusion scenes, but just the more everyday scenes. Like in the very beginning, there's a scene where Guy, you know, the romantic lead, is working at the gas station....

LEGRAND: Yeah.

GROSS: ... and he's just fixed a customer's car...

LEGRAND: Yeah.

GROSS: ... and Guy says "finished" and the customer says: "It rattles a bit when the motor's cold, but that's normal."

That's not the typical stuff that people set to music.

LEGRAND: No, absolutely not. No, this is why also, you know, when we decided to stuff the, you know, the film with jazz, with loud blaring jazz, you know, tune -- to really shock the people for a few minutes, and then come back to, you know, a nice, a more romantic melody.

We wanted to shock first -- to be able. Because, you know, it was -- we were always, Jacques and I said that we know that our movie is not going to be commercial at all. We knew it.

So we said, we wanted to do, first of all, exactly what we -- you know, what we hoped to do; exactly, you know: he sees it. I was hearing it. And we said, it's a pure, completely -- without any compromise -- exactly what we want to do.

And we, you know, we decided -- on the emotion, you know, in every page, in every line. And working, you know -- it's beautiful to work together, because any idea he had for lyrics; any idea I had for music -- we discussed it and we work together to decide to use it or not.

GROSS: Why don't we hear the music from that opening scene in the gas station...

LEGRAND: Fine. OK.

GROSS: ... where Guy has just finished working on a car.

LEGRAND: Yes, and you know what's funny, because the movie starts with -- c'est termine (ph) -- it's finished, so we laughed, you now, Jacques and I said we start with "it's over."

GROSS: Right. And he's saying "it's finished" to the customer whose car is just finished.

LEGRAND: Yeah. Yeah.

GROSS: OK. Here it is.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "THE UMBRELLAS OF CHERBOURG")

ACTORS SINGING IN FRENCH

GROSS: That's music from the opening scene of The Umbrellas of Cherbourg which has just been re-released in a beautiful new print. My guest is the composer, Michel Legrand.

How else was writing the score for this movie different from writing more conventional songs? Were you just writing a regular song?

LEGRAND: No, no. It was very different, because first of all, you have to find the style -- the overall style from beginning to end. So I used jazz. I used, you know, romantic things.

I used, you know, many kind of ingredients, you know, in my cooking, to try to find the style. And sort of it's, it's sometime pseudo-classical sometimes. But I think it's -- everything is in one very serious and rigorous style.

As soon as you find it, then you have to find the melodies which goes very well with the one before, you know, bringing the new one coming up. So it's not the song work, really, because a song has, you know, a beginning and an end; and it ends. And there, there is never any end, so it's a very different work.

GROSS: My guest is Michel Legrand, who composed the music for the 1964 film The Umbrellas of Cherbourg. The movie has been restored and is now out on video. We'll be back after a break.

This is FRESH AIR.

Back with Michel Legrand. He composed the music for the 1964 film The Umbrellas of Cherbourg. A restored edition of the movie is out on video. Our interview was recorded last year, after the restoration was released theatrically.

Even though you weren't setting out to write songs, there were a couple of songs from The Umbrellas of Cherbourg that became very famous on their own, and had a life outside of the movie, and I'm thinking from the main theme which is known, I think, to a lot of Americans as "I Will Wait For You," and "Watch What Happens."

LEGRAND: Sure. But I mean, you know, we can -- anyone can always, you know, extract from a score, I mean, one melody and use it, you know, as a separate item.

GROSS: Were you surprised that these became songs, and became hits on their own?

LEGRAND: Very much surprised, I'll tell you. Because first of all, Jacques and I, we couldn't find any producer in Paris who would put one franc in an adventure like that. Nobody believed in it.

We went -- we auditioned, you know, to every possible producer in Paris, and nobody wanted to produce it, because they said "no" -- you are a couple of young, you know, nice guys, but I don't believe that the audience will stay for 90 minutes, you know, in a dark theater while people on the, you know, on the screen are singing "(Unintelligible). It will never work.

So hearing that for about a year, because you know, we auditioned about -- for a complete of years. Jacques and I, we knew that, you know, our movie, if by any miracle, we could make it, would be a flop for sure.

GROSS: And of course, the movie was not a flop, and neither was the music.

LEGRAND: Yes, it's very funny because you know at the opening night, you know, the opening night, right away, it was a success, and we were the first ones amazed about it.

GROSS: Now, I believe that none of the actors in Umbrellas of Cherbourg did their own singing. I believe each actor had a singer that dubbed for him or her. Is that right?

LEGRAND: Yes. Absolutely. Because Jacques wanted to have the exact, you know, actor or actress for each role, and I wanted to have the best singer, male or female, for each character.

But it was easy, you know, because nobody is speaking one word in that movie, so we could choose any kind of singing voice, you know.

GROSS: Now, when you were shooting the movie, and the actors had to lip-synch to the singers...

LEGRAND: Yeah.

GROSS: ... was it hard for the actors...

LEGRAND: No.

GROSS: ... to get it just right...

LEGRAND: No.

GROSS: ... and to really be -- because so many movies where, you know, where it's dubbed like that, it looks really phony.

LEGRAND: No. But I mean, you know, we had to -- I was very, very careful with it, because when we recorded the singers, we asked of the actors to be there at the recording studio. And we said to the actors: You have to do, you have to say: bonjour, q'uelle heure est t'il (ph)?

How would you say that if you had to talk? So that: bonjour, je vais bien. So we said to the singers: so you have to, you know, listen to the actor and try to sing in the speed that the actor would normally say it.

So we work very closely, you know, actors and singers together. All the actors were there when the singers were singing the parts in the studio, with the orchestra.

And after that, you know, we did some acetate discs, and we forced every actor and actress, you know, in the cast to work for couple of months, every day I was there with them, almost every day -- to learn very well, you know, the music, the score.

So when they -- when they -- when Jacques started shooting, they knew it very, very well. They rehearsed and we rehearsed so many times, that they knew it well. And my job during the shooting was behind the camera, to look if every actor was in synch with their voices.

And they were -- and it worked beautifully. They knew it so well.

GROSS: What did it sound like when the actors, in order to be convincing, were actually singing, even though you weren't recording their voices, 'cause their voices were being dubbed? But they had to -- they had to actually sing, so that they'd look convincing. Did they sing well? Or was it funny to listen to?

LEGRAND: No, it was very difficult, because they don't sing well, but I said: you know, you have to sing. Don't -- don't just, you know, move your lips. Sing -- scream, even if it's out of key. I don't care, but we must see, you know you singing and acting. So that they did it very well, very well.

GROSS: I wish I could hear what that sounded like.

LAUGHTER

I wish there was a recording of that.

LEGRAND: No, no, no. I'm glad that you never heard it.

GROSS: Instead, why don't we hear some more music from the original recording. This is one of the beautiful melodies from Umbrellas of Cherbourg that you composed. This is - Americans will know it as Watch What Happens.

But this was so interesting to me, 'cause I knew the song first as Watch What Happens, which, you know, was a very kind of popular pop hit.

LEGRAND: Mm-hmm.

GROSS: It's such -- the second time it's sung in the movie, it's a song of such longing and disillusionment and love. I mean, there's -- I'll just explain, there's a diamond merchant who's fallen in love with the leading lady. He knows that she's in love with somebody else.

But he knows that she was made for him, and he goes to her mother, and says this: once I loved a woman, but she did not love me. Her name was Lola. Once disillusioned, I tried to forget.

I left the country, and went to the end of the world, but life was meaningless. Then I -- by chance, I met you and the moment I saw Genevieve, I knew she was made for me.

And it's sung to this melody -- a beautiful melody. Why don't we hear it? And then I'll talk to you about writing it.

LEGRAND: Good.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "WATCH WHAT HAPPENS" FROM "THE UMBRELLAS OF CHERBOURG")

ACTOR SINGING

GROSS: Michel Legrand, what did you think about when writing this lovely melody?

LEGRAND: You know, I thought of -- this is what the film wanted at that moment. You know, it was not just one melody. It was part of the entire work, and when I found it, I said I think it would be very beautiful there, so we tried and it worked.

That's very simple. I mean, it looks, you know, on surface very simple. It's not, but -- because that is the best way that I would like to explain it.

GROSS: You mean, like the intervals are more surprising than you'd think?

LEGRAND: Ah, sure. Yeah. I mean it's funny because this score seems very simple, and it is, you know, it's like three notes, but it's very -- it's very complicated.

GROSS: Tell me why it's complicated?

LEGRAND: Because, you know, for me -- the quality of a melody should -- even if the melody is very complicated by itself, should sounds to you like it existed for thousand years already. It should sound so natural. It should float naturally, like a bird singing a song.

So I always try to -- even if it's torn -- and you know, if it's complicated, sophisticated -- it has to sound to you very natural. This is why I'm always looking when I write a melody, in any style, you know, in any discipline. And then this is what I tried on Cherbourg too.

GROSS: Now, how did the song that we just heard in which one of the characters sings about his lost love -- how did that become Watch What Happens -- the American pop hit?

LEGRAND: Because, you know, when we finished the film, then I went to New York and I met a friend -- had a friend, his name is Don Costa. Don Costa was a very famous orchestrator in New York. Beautiful -- very good musician.

And I said to him: listen to the (Unintelligible) said: Michel, that's great. He said: why don't I publish it? And why don't, you know, we extract a couple, two or three tunes from that, and try to make some songs out of it?

I said: Fine, go. So Don called Norman Gimbel (ph), you know, the American lyricist, and Norman wrote I Will Wait For You and he wrote Watch What Happens. So we were very happy with it and this is how it became, you know, songs.

GROSS: My guest is Michel Legrand, who composed the music for the 1964 film The Umbrellas of Cherbourg. The movie has been restored, and is now out on video.

We'll be back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

Back with Michel Legrand. He composed the music for the 1964 film The Umbrellas of Cherbourg. A restored edition of the movie is now out on home video. Our interview was recorded last year after the restoration was released theatrically.

When you were talking about you and the director Jacques Demis were first conceiving of Umbrellas of Cherbourg -- you said that one of the difficult things, when you were thinking it would be a conventional musical, was how do you get from the speaking parts to the singing parts. That transition, on film, always looks awkward. People always have a hard time with that.

Have you -- what has it been like for you to do musicals where you do have to make that transition, from speaking to singing? Where it's not sung all the way through?

LEGRAND: We did, because right after Cherbourg, I mean, the success of Cherbourg, every producer who refused to produce Cherbourg, came to us: oh, great, you guys. Make us another Umbrellas of Cherbourg. And we said: no, thank you. We've done it once. It's over. Now we'll do something else.

And then we did a conventional, or so-called conventional, musical called "The Young (Unintelligible)" with spoken parts and singing parts. And that I think went pretty well -- you know, the transition between what's said and what's sung.

GROSS: And was it hard to make that transition, between what's said and what's sung?

LEGRAND: Hard, yes. Everything is hard. But it -- you know, you have to be extremely keen and extremely, you know, subtle, to bring the music when, you know, to insolently -- when naturally someone starts to sing. Not easy.

GROSS: Michel Legrand, thank you so much for talking with us.

LEGRAND: Oh, Terry. It's pleasure.

GROSS: Michel Legrand composed the music for the 1964 film The Umbrellas of Cherbourg. The restored version is now out on home video. Our interview was recorded last year.

I'm Terry Gross.

Dateline: Terry Gross, Philadelphia
Guest: Michel Legrand
High: French Composer Michel Legrand. He composed the score for the 1964 classic French film, "The Umbrellas of Cherbourg," which is now out on video. In the film every bit of dialogue is sung to Legrand's music. The film was recently restored; for years it was unavailable because no decent print existed. Legrand has won three Oscars for the song "The Windmills of Your Mind" from the film "The Thomas Crown Affair" Best Original Dramatic Score for "Summer of '42," and Best Original Song Score for "Yentl." Some of Legrand's compositions are included on the CD "Musique & Cinema."
Spec: Music Industry; Movie Industry; Europe; France; People; Michel Legrand
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End-Story: Michel Legrand
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