If 'Carmichael Show' Topics Feel Uncomfortable, That's Because They're Real

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR, I'm Terry Gross. My guest, comic Jerrod Carmichael, is the creator and star of the NBC sitcom "The Carmichael Show," which is now in its second season. A New York Times Magazine article described Carmichael as having, quote, "one of standup's most unorthodox approaches to exploring race and class," unquote. In his sitcom, the characters of Jerrod Carmichael, his girlfriend, his parents and his brother typically end up in disagreements about subjects like once you know all the allegations against Bill Cosby, is it still OK to watch his show?

If your father, who abused you and your mother, dies, do you still deliver a nice eulogy? Should you see a therapist for depression or is depression just something that afflicts white, affluent people who have the time and money to worry about such things? Here's a scene from the episode about Cosby. Jerrod has presented his girlfriend with two tickets for them to see Bill Cosby perform his standup act, but she refuses to go because of the allegations of sexual abuse.

He figures maybe someone else in the family will want to go. They visit his parents' house, where his brother also lives, and they all get into a big discussion about whether it's OK to go. Jerrod speaks first.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE CARMICHAEL SHOW")

JERROD CARMICHAEL: (As himself) For me, this whole thing isn't about guilt or innocence. It's about the fact that "The Cosby Show" was so important. I mean, it brought my family together. It made us realize we could go to college. I mean, we didn't, but we knew we could and that ain't nothing.

AMBER STEVENS WEST: (As Maxine) That doesn't change the fact that he's a horrible human being - allegedly.

DAVID ALAN GRIER: (As Joe Carmichael) Continue.

CARMICHAEL: (As himself) Maxine, just face it, talent is more important than morals.

WEST: (As Maxine) What - more important? According to who?

CARMICHAEL: (As himself) According to you - the same woman, who despite many accusations, continues to listen to Michael Jackson.

LORETTA DEVINE: (As Cynthia) Well, if she's listening to Michael Jackson, I can go see Bill Cosby.

(LAUGHTER)

WEST: (As Maxine) Oh, come on, give me a break. Everybody listens to Michael Jackson.

CARMICHAEL: (As himself) And that's my point. Everyone should listen to Michael Jackson. Even his victims should listen to his music. I mean, they probably need it more than we do. They've been through a lot.

(LAUGHTER)

GRIER: (As Joe Carmichael) Well, the boy's got a point. I mean, I support gay rights, but I still eat at Chick-fil-A, like, a lot - like, four times a week. Maybe I don't support gay rights.

(LAUGHTER)

CARMICHAEL: (As himself) You're being hypocritical, Maxine. Aren't you the same person who saw "Blue Jasmine" during the height of the Woody Allen scandal, just putting money directly into his pockets?

WEST: (As Maxine) Fine, if you don't go see Bill Cosby, then I will never go see a Woody Allen film again.

CARMICHAEL: (As himself) I'm not judging you for seeing his movies. You should see them. He's a great artist. I'm just saying you need to separate people's personal life from their work. I mean, anybody's capable of doing something violent or disgusting, but the list of people with genuine talent is limited. So talent trumps morals.

LIL HOWERY: (As Bobby Carmichael) Does this mean I could go back to listening to Chris Brown?

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: Jerrod Carmichael, welcome to FRESH AIR. So we've gotten a sense of some of the format of your show. It usually takes an issue and then the characters, who are the regulars - the Jerrod Carmichael character, his girlfriend, his parents, his brother, his ex-sister-in-law - all kind of weigh in and disagree with each other and try to, like, resolve it in some way and keep peace in the family (laugher) so...

CARMICHAEL: Yeah (laughter), yeah.

GROSS: How did that become the premise of the show? Like, why did you want that to be your show?

CARMICHAEL: It's kind of the premise of my life, so it worked. It's a very real thing. I grew up in a household that's very argumentative. And, you know, a lot of times in a very healthy way. And my friends and - I try and - my life, I like to say, is like a populated, like, Lincoln's cabinet.

GROSS: (Laughter).

CARMICHAEL: You know, it's just a bunch of people that disagree with me and us on a quest for the truth. So that's kind of what we do. That's who I am and who my friends and my family are. So it just made sense for the show.

GROSS: My impression from the show is that you think a lot of people have things that they don't want to admit to. They think things they don't want to admit to.

CARMICHAEL: Yeah.

GROSS: Yes?

CARMICHAEL: Yeah, a lot of things. It's - as a comedian, it's kind of my job to mind those thoughts. And you know when you've stumbled upon a truth, a hard truth, or something that you may even feel uncomfortable saying into a microphone. And that's when you know you've got some gold.

GROSS: So how many of these episodes come out of your life?

CARMICHAEL: The perspective is real, more so than the situation. The perspective is very real. The perspective is a lot of times from my life and my real-life perspective. I have my family on the show - they portray my family. And I'm using real names, so I try and be very mindful of their privacy and even my own privacy and...

GROSS: But you're using their real names or just your real name?

CARMICHAEL: I'm using theirs, too. My - listen...

GROSS: Oh, I didn't realize that.

CARMICHAEL: I did the - yeah, Joe and Cynthia Carmichael - just inviting identity theft (laughter).

GROSS: I'm glad I'm not in your family (laughter).

CARMICHAEL: Yeah, I know. But they're really - they're excited. They're really excited by it. I mean, because the perspective is so real - you know the reason I use my real name for the show, and even my parents to a certain extent, is because it holds me accountable. It makes me really - I mean, you care because it's your show and it's project. But it holds you accountable. A thing with your name on it, you want to protect and you want to be the best version that it could possibly be.

If your welcome mat of your home had your last name on it, you would kind of - you would, you know, wipe some leaves off of it every now and then, I'd imagine. You kind of keep it looking decent. You don't want your name to, you know, have anything on it. So that's how I feel about the show. I want to protect it, and I want my real name and I want my real perspective.

GROSS: So another episode - and you can tell me if this does or does not relate to your life - in one episode, your father finds out that his estranged father has just died. And he's expected to give a eulogy. And he doesn't know what to say because his father beat him and beat his mother. And he doesn't like his father. So how do you deal with the death of someone who never paid attention to you, abused you, abused your mother, left the family, never gave any money and so on?

So is that something that you've witnessed in your family or in others?

CARMICHAEL: Yeah, it is a thing where you - I've seen that even in my own life. I remember, you know, being asked to, like, sing at my grandfather's funeral, and having, you know - I was young at the time, but even realizing that the relationship wasn't that healthy on that side.

And, you know - just - and even over the years, friends - unfortunately I've lost a few friends - and just seeing that happen repeatedly is why I wanted to do the episode. It was about like, well, what do you say, like, when this person is no longer here? Do you then like lie and you make up an emotion and you make up facts or do - you know, out of respect - or are you obligated to tell the truth? And...

GROSS: Yeah, well, the thing is as a comic, I think you see it as your job to be a truth teller that's funny.

CARMICHAEL: Yes, yes.

GROSS: But in real life sometimes it's better not to tell the truth and to say the thing that is the appropriate thing (laughter).

CARMICHAEL: Yeah.

GROSS: So let me offer an example of a time when you probably were less than completely honest about what was on your mind. And I'm thinking of a time you actually met Bill Cosby at his home (laughter). And I'm guessing that you didn't say, did you really - why did you - how could you possibly have done that to a woman?

CARMICHAEL: Well, when I met him - and this is - you know, honestly, that hadn't broken yet. This was years ago, and so I met him, you know, just as a fan, just as a fan of his work as, you know, someone who really admired what he did in comedy and sitcoms and with his career.

And so I met him in that capacity. So we talked comedy and television You know, that was our conversation. And it was a good conversation, you know, it was a good conversation.

GROSS: What did "The Cosby Show" mean to you when you were growing up?

CARMICHAEL: A lot. It's fun. It was a fun family. It was a fun - it was a beautiful, black family that, you know, you hadn't seen this family exist on television before, and it was fun. It was great. We all aspired to be, you know, that family singing on the stairs. And it was fun, and a great experience to watch with your family. I think many of us did.

That's what made the episode, I think, so exciting to do because I think that it touched on a nerve of emotion that many of us felt. And rather it was for Bill Cosby or someone else, I think we've all had to deal with that.

I mean, just even in the clip that you played, I mean, Michael Jackson and Woody Allen and all these people who had gone through similar things of - and it's like, oh, well, what do you do if this is a person you're a fan of, what do you do? What do you do in this instance? Do you burn the records? Do you still listen? Is that experience ruined or are you able to just block out - like, it's such so many questions around it.

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Jerrod Carmichael, and he created and stars in the NBC's sitcom "The Carmichael Show," which is on Sunday nights. Let's take a short break here, then we'll talk some more, and we'll hear some of your stand-up. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is comic and actor Jerrod Carmichael. And his NBC series "The Carmichael Show" is shown Sunday nights, and it's a family sitcom. He's also a standup comic. And, Jerrod, I'd like to play an example of your standup comedy...

CARMICHAEL: OK.

GROSS: ...And this is from your HBO special from 2014, "Love At The Store," which was recorded live at The Comedy Store. And the HBO version of this was directed by Spike Lee. So here's Jerrod Carmichael.

(SOUNDBITE OF COMEDY SHOW, "LOVE AT THE STORE")

CARMICHAEL: Am I going to forget where I came from? Of Course I am - like almost immediately. Like, I don't even like the term give back to the community because it implies the community gave me [expletive] in the first place, which they didn't. The community stole my bike. That's what the community did. [Expletive] the community. Like, I don't know if you guys ever watched movies like "Dangerous Minds," but if you did, you'd know there's always two types of inner-city youth, you know? There's reachable - that was me - and then there's hopeless [expletive].

And I was reachable, you know? Like, in the movie, his name is usually Jamal. And, like, Jamal's in a gang, but he writes poetry in secret on the weekends. That was me. I was like Jamal. Do you know how many teachers have walked up to me at my desk and whispered in my ear, (whispering) you're not like the others?

(LAUGHTER)

CARMICHAEL: A lot - this happened a lot. Jamal always lives with his grandma. And, like, his grandma's always unreasonably ignorant toward education. Like, he misses a few days of school. And then Michelle Pfeiffer comes to his house, and she knocks on the door. And she's like, you know, we really miss having Jamal in class. And then his grandma says some ignorant [expletive] like books don't put food on the table. You know, like some stupid [expletive] like that? And you're like, it's that type of environment.

GROSS: (Laughter) That's Jerrod Carmichael from his HBO special "Love At The Comedy Store". So were you the kid who teachers whispered in your ear you're not like the others?

CARMICHAEL: Yeah, yeah, a lot...

GROSS: How did you take that? Because it's nice to be considered, you know, the smart one and all that, but it's so dismissive of everybody else.

CARMICHAEL: It is - well, first of all, I think everybody has a certain amount of potential. It just has to be woken up. And I think it's kind of this chicken or egg thing where it's like, am I different because I'm told that I'm different or do I feel different and then that just heightens it? That gives me license to embrace that when people tell you. So for me, you know, I express that through joke because I really think that a lot of kids, from my situation or background, are different, even if they don't know it, even if they don't know their own innate potential.

And so that just highlights it. That joke is just meant to kind of highlight it. I hope - I wish that more people knew that.

GROSS: So I should say, in that clip, some people listening to it will have been disturbed by the use of the word N-word. If you were me, would you have bleeped it?

CARMICHAEL: No, everybody should be able to say it (laughter). Like, what are we - you know, I'm very much so, you know, an advocate for let's strip the power away from it. It's like the more you hold - if you put something in a box and label it, you know, private - everybody's going to want to peek into that box. Everyone's going to think that it harnesses a certain amount of power, and so for me, it's just like, yeah, say it.

GROSS: So describe the neighborhood where you grew up. You grew up in Winston-Salem, N.C.?

CARMICHAEL: Winston-Salem, N.C. It's a working-class neighborhood - a lot of hard-working people. I grew up around - I guess you would describe the neighborhood as inner-city. It's, you know, there's a lot of hard-working people, and then there are some people, by means of circumstance, have to, you know, resort to certain things, you know, to make money or whatever. And it's a lot people that are struggling. And that's what I grew up around.

GROSS: So you were singled out in school for being exceptional and smart and everything, but I can tell by watching you doing standup that you're not a very, like, physically imposing guy. You're very thin, you don't strike me as being terribly tall. So was that an issue when you were growing up? Were you picked on because you - because people could pick on you? (Laughter) If you know what I mean.

CARMICHAEL: Yeah (laughter). Well, you're kind of...

GROSS: Actually, it's occurring to me...

CARMICHAEL: I got picked on for a different - I got picked on for not having, like, the coolest clothes...

GROSS: Right, mentioned that in your routine. Yeah.

CARMICHAEL: ...You know, or the coolest shoes. And you find - yeah, because it doesn't matter who you are and your stature and - even the guy with the nice clothes could get picked on. Every - no one was off-limits. You know, that happened to me, and I'm both a victim of it and I'm sure I contributed to that. None - by the way, none of us could really afford, you know, a bunch of expensive shoes, but we still picked on others for not having it.

GROSS: What was your method of self-defense?

CARMICHAEL: Comedy became a very - it gave me a very strong sense of self-worth. I remember kind of discovering it in eighth grade. And I discovered it through reading, and I discovered it through knowledge and being able to turn information and emotion on its head. And it's a thing that I remember kind of figuring out in the eighth grade in Mr. Naires (ph) class. He had me read the newspaper every day. I started gathering information, and I just started having this insatiable, you know, thirst for information and news and how people felt.

And that all contributes to my comedy. And I remember discovering it and using it, you know? And I became kind of the popular kid at a young age just through comedy. It was the funny guy. You know, people want to be around the funny guy.

GROSS: So your father was a truck driver...

CARMICHAEL: Yes.

GROSS: ...I don't know if there were any people who you knew in your neighborhood who had gone on to, like, any kind of career in performance or show business.

CARMICHAEL: No.

GROSS: I think when you grow up without knowing people who can do that, it seems like a very distant dream - like, a very out-of-reach ambition. So what made you think that you could actually do you? 'Cause you - as far as I know - you moved to LA without a whole lot of experience trying to become a comic and, like, you succeeded. But you must've either really been driven or, you know, had the confidence that you could do it.

CARMICHAEL: Yeah well, first of all, growing up where I grew up, a lot of things that shouldn't feel unreachable feel unreachable. I didn't know people who've made it in the entertainment industry, but I also didn't know any doctors. And I also didn't know any lawyers. And I didn't know - and just these things and not seeing that and not being around that, you don't think that it's an option. You don't know what your options are.

You don't know what you can do. And I was really blessed to have people that allowed me to realize that the world is mine as well.

GROSS: So what was your parents' reaction when you told them you wanted to be a comic?

CARMICHAEL: They never seen it happen before. They hadn't seen anyone make it or really knew any comedians, so it's a certain amount of caution. My mom, you know, was nervous because I didn't - my announcement that I wanted to be a comic was the announcement that I was moving to Los Angeles. So that was all in one thing. So they had a double thing to deal with. They're like, all right, so you want to be a comedian in LA (laughter)? Like, so you've got to go, you know, 2,000 miles away to try a thing that you've never tried before?

A very strong amount of caution but they were also excited - you know, also curious, I think. Why not? I didn't go to college, so it was like, why not? Let's see what happens.

GROSS: Had you done any standup yet?

CARMICHAEL: Not any standup. A friend of mine actually encouraged me to do standup. She told me, again, you're not like the others. She'd say you don't think - you think like a comedian. You don't think - you know, you think in jokes and you think, like, in a really specific way, and you should do standup. And I kind of dismissed it and said, yeah, sure. And she was like, no, no, no, you really have to do standup. And then she refused to talk to me until I made plans to do standup comedy.

She just said I won't talk to you until then. It kind of pressed me to just go, why not? And then my sister bought me a one-way plane ticket to LA. And then I told my parents I was moving and boom.

GROSS: You've had some good people in your life.

CARMICHAEL: Some great people - I mean, some great moments. I remember being - I was working at a shoe store and I remember feeling kind of lost - not really sure what I wanted to do with my life. I'm still just working at a, you know, at this shoe store with no direction. And a guy came in and he - and I'd already been kind of considering LA. And he came into the store one day, and you just kind of make the sales associate small talk. And I asked him what he did, and he said he was an actor. And I said, oh, really? I said that sounds like fun, man, I've always wanted to do that.

And he said he lived in LA. And I was like, oh, man, I've always wanted to go there. And he said just move. And I was like, oh. Oh, we could - you could just - you could do that? He was like, yeah, go to Westside Rentals or Craigslist - I didn't have the $60 for a Westside Rentals account, so I went on Craigslist and found an apartment and called my sister and said, I want to do this. And she got a plane - this all happened within, like, a couple days.

I said, I want to do it, and then made plans to move to LA.

GROSS: My guest is Jerrod Carmichael. The second season of his sitcom, "The Carmichael Show," is on NBC Sunday nights. We'll talk more after a short break. Also, Kevin Whitehead will review a new Sonny Rollins album of live recordings from 1979 to 2012. And Maureen Corrigan will review Betsy Lerner's new memoir about re-entering the life of her then 83-year-old mother. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with comic and actor Jerrod Carmichael. He co-created and stars in the NBC sitcom "The Carmichael Show," which is now in its second season. His 2014 HBO standup comedy special was directed by Spike Lee. He was also in the film "Neighbors" and is in the sequel, which will be released next month. When we left off, we were talking about growing up in Winston-Salem, N.C. and deciding to move to LA with no experience and no contacts. That was back in 2008, when he was 20.

So you get to LA. You have no experience doing stand-up, but it's your goal to do stand-up or to get a sitcom (laughter). Nothing in your life has given you any reason to truly believe that this could happen. So you get there. Like, where do you start?

CARMICHAEL: You hit open mics. I went to The Comedy Store first. And you can go to The Comedy Store, The Improv, the Laugh Factory - these clubs that I still do and that I still love - and you just jump in. You - like, that's - what I believe in more than anything is my ability to figure something out. So I moved to LA with the intention of figuring out stand-up comedy. And while I was excited about doing a sitcom and I was excited about acting, when I was doing - when I first moved, I was just doing stand-up comedy.

I dedicated my life. I ignored the industry. If anything, I ran from the industry. I used to go to New York for pilot season so I could just do stand-up and just focus on that. And I didn't want to just be cast as a friend in a sitcom. I wanted to work on stand-up. I wanted to be great at stand-up. I don't see why you would do anything without the intention of being the best, so that's - that was the goal. It was like, well, first, you know, the open mics, and then the shows that I'm on, and then whatever comes next comes next. So I just move with a lot of intention to figure it out.

GROSS: Most comics have stories about their early days where they really bombed and it really hurt and maybe it took another, like, week or month or year before they had the courage to go back onstage. Did you experience anything like that?

CARMICHAEL: No. I mean, I've had moments. I've had some real moments of, like, just - probably the worst bomb I ever had was - this was - I had been doing stand-up for a couple of years, so it didn't shake my self-esteem in any way, but it still hurt (laughter). But it wasn't, like, core-shaking. I was in Baltimore, and a close friend of mine had just passed away, and I was rusty because it was after Christmas and I hadn't gone up in a while. And I remember getting onstage and just having the worst set ever. Just the worst set - people just talking and whatever.

And I gave up control. It wasn't even that I lost it. It's that I remember giving up, and that just - that was a lesson in, you know, maintaining a certain drive and temperament even while onstage - even when going through other emotions. If you don't incorporate it into what you're doing, then you shouldn't be doing it. So that was kind of a lesson in that.

But my earlier days were fun. They were exciting. They were really exciting. I was around a great group of people who, like - who were like-minded, who genuinely dedicated their lives to the craft, genuinely. Like, genuinely - I would - I mean, it was hard for me to be around people if they did too many, quote unquote, "normal things." If I were talking to a comic and he was like, oh, yeah, well, I'm not going to go to this open mic, I'm going to go watch this football game, I'm like, oh, I don't think we can be friends. I don't think we have anything in common. It's like, yeah - I, like, dedicated every fiber of my being to figuring out stand-up comedy.

GROSS: So you do some really, like, I don't know what to make of that kind of comedy. Like, for example, in one of your comedy sets, you do something like - and forgive me for paraphrasing (laughter). Forgive me for killing a joke, but...

CARMICHAEL: ...No, it's OK. It's about the thought behind it now.

GROSS: OK, so you say something like, I'm lucky there was slavery because - you want to take it from there?

CARMICHAEL: (Laughter).

GROSS: Your turn.

(LAUGHTER)

CARMICHAEL: Oh, we should definitely do, like - go on the road as Abbott and Costello. You just say a very - just a very controversial thing and then just pass me the mic. It's like, Terry just gets up there - we're lucky there was slavery. Jerrod, you want to take it from here? Well, yes, Terry, I will (laughter) take it from here. Without doing the joke, the thought behind it is that without slavery, I wouldn't be in America. That's a guy dealing with taking this heinous, horrible thing that is slavery and trying to find a silver lining, which is that we are in America with a lot of opportunity.

And it's like the question begs, would I trade slavery for this experience? Or was slavery - and even the pain that, you know, you can use to motivate you and the - what's left over from it, do I take that and use it as fuel? And what do you do with it? It's that same question of, like, what do I do with that? What I do with the fact that slavery did bring us to America and that I am embracing the freedom that America provides? So in a sense, am I thankful that slavery happened? It's weird.

And it's a weird thing that a lot of people, you know, shut down. You know, you hear buzzwords and you hear certain things and people are inclined to shut down and just dismiss it as no, that's not a thought you're supposed to have. But it's a very real thought and a really real question, and so that's where the joke came from without saying the joke itself.

GROSS: You must get, though, some surprising, interesting reactions when you do that kind of jujitsu comedy where you put out this premise that sounds, like, really weird. And it's not like you're endorsing it, but you're putting it out as this kind of challenging thing, turning it on its head and everything. So do people ever really take offense? Do you get booed? Like, what are some of the things that you have to deal with when you do that kind of comedy?

CARMICHAEL: People - that's - the challenge is earning the laugh, and the laugh is the reward for the thought. And some people, like I said earlier, - like, they just shut down. Certain people shut down, and the fun thing is to try and win them back or get their attention and make them listen to what I'm actually saying. And - so you sometimes have strong reactions, and I like that.

I like when I'll put out a premise and the reaction is very strong because that way, I know you're listening. You're ready to hear - because it better - and it better be good. It better - whatever you say after this, it better be good. It better be worth this emotion that I'm expanding.

GROSS: That is why I handed the mic to you (laughter).

CARMICHAEL: Yeah.

(LAUGHTER)

CARMICHAEL: Oh, our tour is going to be amazing, Terry...

GROSS: I know, I know.

CARMICHAEL: ...Because you and I just -

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: So on that note, let's take a short break (laughter). Then we'll be right back...

CARMICHAEL: ...We'll work on the act a little bit more.

GROSS: We'll work on the act, exactly.

CARMICHAEL: You and I will work -

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: I like it. OK, my guest is Jerrod Carmichael and he has an NBC comedy series, which is called "The Carmichael Show," on Sunday nights. He's also a stand-up comic and actor. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is comic, actor and writer Jerrod Carmichael. He has an NBC sitcom that's on Sunday nights called "The Carmichael Show." It's a family sitcom, and in 2014, he had an HBO comedy special called "Love At The Store" that was recorded live at The Comedy Store directed by Spike Lee. OK, so you have a network sitcom now. It's in its second season.

CARMICHAEL: Yes.

GROSS: We talked about the show earlier. It seems to me there's, like, certain pros and cons of having a network like a broadcast network sitcom, an NBC sitcom as opposed to say an HBO half-hour comedy series.

CARMICHAEL: Yes.

GROSS: For example, there's language you can use on HBO that you can't use on network TV. There's a certain reach that you might have - that you definitely have on network TV that you don't necessarily have on HBO because it's a premium channel. You have to pay extra for it.

CARMICHAEL: Yeah.

GROSS: A lot of people don't have it. So, you know, the HBO series don't have the studio audiences, the network half-hour series, like yours, tend to have the studio audience, so you hear the laughter on your show.

So what are some of the things you like and some of the things that you wish you didn't have to do in the network version of a sitcom?

CARMICHAEL: I really like all of it. I embraced it for a reason and for that reason because it is a challenge. I really like challenges. And doing the, you know, the show where we can, you know, say curse words and be a bit more provocative, if you will. It's fun, and I like the idea of it.

But, first of all, a lot of the comedies that really influenced me were multicamera comedies, everything from Norman Lear's shows to "Murphy Brown" to "Martin" are all these multicamera camera experiences that I really, really love. And it seemed like more of a challenge, well, how do we have these rules and how do we find a way to be creative around that?

Maybe, you know, perhaps in the future, there is a different version of a show - or we still have the outlet of film which I'm really excited about - to get out thoughts that don't necessarily fit in this format. But I like the challenge. I embrace it. Me and my friends enjoy figuring that out.

GROSS: You know, earlier we played that part of your comedy where your teachers would say to you, you're not like the others, you're special.

CARMICHAEL: Yes.

GROSS: Did any of your teachers get in touch with you after your sitcom went on the air?

CARMICHAEL: I maintained - there's one teacher that's very important to me - very, very important to me - Corinne Van Meter (ph). And we maintained a certain correspondence throughout before the shows on the air, and I don't want to lose touch with her. She's so important to me and literally changed my life.

I mean, in fifth grade, we did a morning news program, and she told me that I was going to produce this morning news program. And every day - first of all, we did everything from picking out my co-anchor, the theme song, the format, the writing the joke of the day. And she said you're going to produce this show. We'll go in on the weekends - she would come in on the weekends. And we would - she said you're going to produce this show.

And she would give me an hour during class to go off and write the script for the next day which she would then take home and type and, you know, reformat so we could have scripts for the next day.

She, like, literally changed my life. That was such an important - I mean, without, you know, her even showing me that that was an option, I don't know where I'd be to be very honest with you. So that - very specifically her - I want to always keep contact with her because she's so important to me.

GROSS: I love that story.

CARMICHAEL: Yeah. We're writing every day. I mean, she took me - I mean, we - I can say it now because it's been years - she took me to see my first play. She took me go to - like and just - she took me to, like, North Carolina School of the Arts. It's a college. It was down the street from me, you know, and she took me there on the weekends and showed me how production worked. And showed me those things.

And so I always, you know, felt like a producer. I always felt like an actor. I always felt like a writer. Since that time just knowing that it was an option. She - I wrote a poem once, and she called the news and got me on the local news for it.

GROSS: Wow.

CARMICHAEL: I mean, just genuinely a beautiful soul and amazing teacher who changed my life. It really, really changed my life.

GROSS: I'm glad you're still in touch with her.

CARMICHAEL: Absolutely. You can't lose touch with her. She's such a, you know, an amazing soul.

GROSS: That's wonderful.

CARMICHAEL: I hope she hears this. I really - yeah, she's - I love her.

GROSS: Well, Jerrod, it's really been great to talk with you. Thank you so much.

CARMICHAEL: Thank you. This was really fun. Thank you so much for having me.

GROSS: Jerrod Carmichael co-created and stars in the NBC sitcom "The Carmichael Show." Its second season is being shown Sunday nights.

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

Our jazz critic Kevin Whitehead has a review of a new album by jazz legend and saxophonist Sonny Rollins, who is now 85. The album collects live recordings made between 1979 and 2012. Kevin says the best of it is choice.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONNY ROLLINS SONG, "PROFESSOR PAUL")

KEVIN WHITEHEAD, BYLINE: Sonny Rollins in concert in 2012. He seems to have given up on studio recording in favor of live compilations. The new "Holding The Stage" is volume four in his Road Show series.

Rollins is very self-critical, doesn't enjoy listening to himself and doesn't spend too much time deliberating over what to put out once he finds enough music he doesn't hate.

There are a couple of real gems here. "Disco Monk" from 1979 is the earliest entry he had in the Road Shows series.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONNY ROLLINS SONG, "DISCO MONK")

WHITEHEAD: That's classic post-1970 Sonny Rollins. He surfs over the band, taking rhythmically-charged solos that may not be so melodically complex. You can hear why the Rolling Stones wanted to record with him. Episodes like that are why people turn out to hear him now.

Still, the album "Holding The Stage" is a mixed bag. The sound isn't always good, and as in concert, he doesn't always sound highly inspired. On a tune from 2001, Sonny's staccato bounce and the iffy recording can make his tenor sax sound like a bassoon.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONNY ROLLINS SONG, "DON'T STOP THE CARNIVAL")

WHITEHEAD: Stephen Scott on piano with Bob Cranshaw on electric bass, building a launching pad for the boss. When Rollins steps up, he and drummer Harold Summey conduct a dialogue in rhythm.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONNY ROLLINS SONG, "KEEP HOLD OF YOURSELF")

WHITEHEAD: Sonny Rollins tips his hat there toward the model for that blues, John Coltrane's "Mr. P.C." I hope we hear more from that '96 Paris concert.

"Holding The Stage" also has a meandering solo improvisation and Rollins' modern style where he flips from one theme to another without alighting anywhere for long. He touches on nursery rhymes, the French national anthem and the hit of 1968, "The Daring Young Man On The Flying Trapeze."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONNY ROLLINS SONG, "SOLO")

WHITEHEAD: We jazz listeners pretty much all revere Sonny Rollins, even those of us who prefer his more intricate early works. He does know how to stay the course. He's been in what I think of as his late phase for his last 40 years.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONNY ROLLINS SONG, "H.S.")

GROSS: Kevin Whitehead writes for Point of Departure and TONEAudio and is the author of "Why Jazz." He reviewed "Holding The Stage," the new album of live recordings by Sonny Rollins.

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. In her new memoir, "The Bridge Ladies," middle-aged baby boomer Betsy Lerner invites herself into her mother's long-running bridge game as a way of trying to understand a generation that still seems to play its cards too close to its chest. Book critic Maureen Corrigan has a review.

MAUREEN CORRIGAN, BYLINE: As America's population ages, we're going to be seeing a lot more of these kinds of books. I'm talking about memoirs written by adult children about the extreme adventures of caring for and reconnecting with their elderly parents. At the forefront of this emerging genre, of course, are cartoonist Roz Chast's brilliant graphic memoir "Can't We Talk About Something More Pleasant?" and George Hodgman's deeply affecting and absurdist "Bettyville." Now Betsy Lerner in "The Bridge Ladies" ups the ante, to mix my card metaphors.

She writes not only of re-entry into the life of her then 83-year-old mother Roz, but also of becoming a kind of auxiliary member of Roz's bridge club, which has been meeting in a suburb of New Haven, Conn. every Monday for over 50 years. Because Lerner's focus is wider and because her mother Roz is still very much alive and with it, this memoir is messier, more open-ended than its predecessors. The relationship between Lerner and her mother is still in process, just like those bridge games.

Lerner tells readers at the outset of her book that she and her mother never were close and that back when she was a deliberately lumpin (ph) 1970s teenager - all attitude and black Grateful Dead T-shirts - she disdained those ladies who showed up in the afternoons to play bridge, resplendent in shimmery nylons and fresh manicures. The ladies, all Jewish, were comfortably married to Jewish men, and only one of the five worked outside the home.

As Lerner says of her younger self, (reading) I was after bigger game. I was already reading Anais Nin and Henry Miller. Lerner did escape to New York. But after a couple of decades, she, her husband and daughter, were pulled back to New Haven by a job offer. Then, Lerner's mother needed help recuperating after surgery, and Lerner offered to move back into her childhood home for a week. That's when she encountered the bridge ladies again. They turned up at the door, smaller and slower, some of them now widowed, all still beautifully groomed and offering home-cooked comfort food.

Lerner became more curious about their lives and especially about the inner life of her own emotionally closed mother. She asked the ladies if she could sit in on their Monday bridge club. As it turns out, she became a regular for almost three years. You can imagine the dire lifetime movie tailspin that this memoir could have fallen into - Lerner coming to appreciate the bridge ladies' wisdom and Jell-O molds, the bridge ladies smoking marijuana for the first time under Lerner's expert tutelage.

But fortunately, Lerner's skepticism as well as the contained nature of the relationship with her mother and the bridge ladies keep the saccharine quotient low. Lerner not only learns to play bridge adequately, but also learns a certain amount of personal history during those three years. Flawless Betty, for instance, had dreams of becoming an actress. Lerner's mother Roz goes into a little more detail about her own struggle with depression and the loss of a toddler daughter.

But the most surprising revelation here is not so much what the bridge ladies say but rather the fact that they don't say much at all. Lerner tells us that she began sitting in on the bridge club hoping to find remnants of a 1970s encounter group. She even nudged the ladies with intrusive questions about their husbands and sex lives. But to her dismay, what Lerner found was that week after week, year after year, her mother and the other bridge ladies met for a nice lunch complete with napkin rings, chatted about events like births and graduations and then chiefly concentrated on playing bridge.

Lerner says (reading) I've learned by now that their reticence is largely generational. For them, the word share meant splitting a sandwich. Speaking of her own generation's ready willingness to discuss therapy, divorces and colonoscopies at cocktail parties, Lerner says (reading) to the bridge ladies, our lives must look like a massive oil spill off the Carolinas. The very fact that the bridge ladies keep bravely playing on year after year through illness and loss and the indignities of old age is something Lerner comes to see as admirable.

She's right. But there's also a sadness to this smart and colorful memoir, a recognition that some distances can't be bridged between loved ones from different generations no matter how ardent the desire or devoted the effort.

GROSS: Maureen Corrigan teaches literature at Georgetown University. She reviewed "The Bridge Ladies" by Betsy Lerner

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