Sarah Vaughan: A New Box Set Revels In Glorious Imperfections.

May 20, 2013

Guest: Mel Brooks

TERRY GROSS, HOST: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Tonight on PBS, the "American Masters" series presents a 90-minute biography called "Mel Brooks: Make a Noise," and that's provided the occasion for a conversation between Mel Brooks and our TV critic, David Bianculli. David has loved the comedy of Mel Brooks since the '60s, when David became a fan of Brooks' spy-spoof series "Get Smart."

Now David teaches TV history at Rowan University, and he shows his students some of Brooks' very early work, from back in the '50s, when Brooks was a writer on the groundbreaking NBC variety show "Your Show of Shows," which starred Sid Caesar. Brooks wrote and directed the films "Blazing Saddles," "Young Frankenstein," "High Anxiety" and "The Producers."

He later adapted "The Producers" into a Broadway musical, which broke the record for the most Tony wins. David spoke with Mel Books about the "American Masters" salute and a lot more. Their conversation began with a clip from filmmaker Richard Trachtenberg's portrait "Make A Noise." The first story Brooks tells in the documentary is about his formative introduction to the Broadway musical.

(SOUNDBITE OF MOVIE, "MAKE A NOISE")

MEL BROOKS: OK, I'm nine years old. Uncle Joe drove a taxicab. One day he said, hey Mel, I got two tickets to a brand new show called "Anything Goes." And he said, well, it's a musical, it's on Broadway, and we've got two seats, the last two seats in the last row of the second balcony. It's thrilling and Broadway theater, I'm nine years old.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG)

ETHEL MERMAN: Why, it's Gabriel, Gabriel playing, Gabriel, Gabriel saying...

(SOUNDBITE OF MOVIE, "MAKE A NOISE")

BROOKS: I couldn't catch my breath. There was Ethel Merman, no microphones, and she was still too loud, you know, and it was two miles away. One incredible number after another. I was literally crying with happiness.

David Bianculli, a pleasure to be here.

DAVID BIANCULLI, BYLINE: What I love about that is that you have so much enthusiasm in your voice, and I've always thought that you couldn't really do a great parody of something unless you understood and enjoyed it.

BROOKS: True, very true. I mean, unless you - I loved Westerns as a little kid, and I loved horror films, and I had fun with them, but I also saluted the glory of the Western and the glory of James Whale's, you know, Frankenstein and Dracula. And, you know, what does a little kid in Brooklyn have when it comes to art? It ain't much, but those movies that you got in, and we didn't have any money.

I was the baby boy of four - altogether we're four brothers. My mother lost her husband, I lost my - I was only two. And he died of tuberculosis. And we were really, you know, poor, I mean dead poor. And I remember my mother gave me three bottles. I wanted desperately to see a Ken Maynard Western, I mean desperately. And you get two other pictures with it. You get three pictures for a dime.

I hadn't - she gave me nine cents. I mean she gave me three bottles, which three cents on each deposit bottle at Mr. Shamus'(ph) grocery store. I had nine cents. I needed another penny. And I said, mom, I need another penny to get into the movies. I must have been about, you know, seven or eight, I don't - and she said I don't have it.

So she went, she knocked on Mrs. Miller's door, said, Mrs. Miller, we don't have any cash in the house, can I have a penny. So I cherished those movies because they really lifted my spirits and are indelibly engraved in my brain as important steps in my world education.

BIANCULLI: And what about, say, Alfred Hitchcock, whom you lampooned in "High Anxiety"? Those would have come a little later for you, but you clearly loved those too.

BROOKS: I always thought, you know, that Alfred Hitchcock was the very best director who ever directed films. And when I was doing - I had the idea for "High Anxiety." I wrote a letter saying basically, dear Mr. Hitchcock, you know, I do genre parodies, and I - in my estimation you are a genre. I don't mean that you're overweight. I mean that you - that you've done every style and every type of movie and that you're just amazing, and I would like to do a movie dedicated to you and based on your style and your work.

And he said - he called me, and he said I loved "Blazing Saddles." I think you're a very talented guy, and come to my office. I came to his office at Universal. And he told me to come back every Friday at a quarter to 12:00 because at 12:30 we would eat, so 45 minutes of work. And he would work on my script, on "High Anxiety," with me.

And he said, well, don't leave out this, and don't leave out that. He said, what are you going to do about "The Birds." I said, well, gee, at the moment I haven't included it. And he said, well, why don't you have them attack you with their - you know, with their doody. He said it's going to be funny. I said thank you, thank you, Mr. Hitchcock.

So he gave me "The Birds," and he gave me a couple of others. He gave me one joke I couldn't use. He's a very, very interesting writer.

BIANCULLI: What was the joke that you couldn't use?

BROOKS: Well, I couldn't use it because, I mean, it didn't - it wasn't part of his work. So - but he said there's a guy running, we don't know who he is, a good guy or bad guy, and there are other men chasing him. And they start shooting at him. And he reaches a pier. And about eight or 10 feet away, there's a ferry, and he makes a gigantic leap, a great arc, and he actually lands on the lip, on the deck of the ferry, he makes it.

Unfortunately, the ferry is coming in, not leaving. So they keep shooting him.

(LAUGHTER)

BROOKS: But I said, gee, that's a great joke, you know, but I couldn't use it. I loved him. He was colorful, he was sweet, and he saw the rough cut of "High Anxiety." And he got up and wiggled by me, never said a word. I said, oh my God - oh, I'm ruined, it's terrible. And he left, and 24 hours later a beautiful wooden box arrives placed on my desk. It is six magnums of Chateau Haut-Brion, 1961, priceless, maybe the greatest wine ever made, including Rothschild or any other, and with a little note saying have no anxiety over "High Anxiety," it's wonderful, love Hitch.

BIANCULLI: "The Producers" I consider your masterwork, and you've worked it several very clever times. I want to start with the 1968 movie and play a fast clip and then ask you some questions about it. It's basically about an accountant who discovers that a producer could make a fortune with a flop Broadway show by raising millions for a program that's so bad it would actually close on opening night.

In the movie, in the original 1968 film, Zero Mostel plays the producer, Gene Wilder plays the accountant, and in this scene they're going through stacks of scripts looking for a really bad play, which the producer thinks he's just found.

(SOUNDBITE OF MOVIE, "THE PRODUCERS")

ZERO MOSTEL: (As Max Bialystock) Touch it, touch it.

GENE WILDER: (As Leo Bloom) What is it?

MOSTEL: (As Max) Smell it. See it. Touch it, touch it.

WILDER: (As Leo) What is it?

MOSTEL: (As Max) What is it? We've struck gold, not fool's good but real gold, the mother lode, the mother lode, the mother of them all. Kiss it, kiss it.

WILDER: (As Leo) You've found a flop?

(As Max) A flop, that's putting it mildly. We found a disaster, catastrophe, an outrage, a guaranteed-to-close-in-one-night beauty.

(As Leo) Let's see it.

MOSTEL: (As Max) This is freedom from want forever. This is a house in the country. This is a Rolls Royce and a Bentley. This is wine, women and song - and women.

WILDER: (As Leo) "Springtime for Hitler: A Gay Romp with Adolf and Eva at Berchtesgaden." Wow.

MOSTEL: (As Max) Wow, it's practically a love letter to Hitler.

WILDER: (As Leo) This won't run a week.

MOSTEL: (As Max) A week? Are you kidding? This play has got to close on Page Four.

BIANCULLI: That was Zero Mostel and Gene Wilder in the original movie version of "The Producers." When you won the Oscar for, I guess, Best Original Screenplay for "The Producers," you thanked Gene Wilder three times. Why did you do that?

BROOKS: Well, because Gene, like Sid Caesar, in my life I've had a couple - well, Zero was magnificent, really, but Gene brought a certain something that was never before, was kind of creative comedy. And he worked tirelessly. He's really the nucleus, the brilliant key to the emotion of the whole piece. And Gene worked for - almost for scale, for nothing, day and night, and he was just, he was so - I couldn't thank him enough.

When I finally put the movie together, I said it would have been a good movie with just Zero Mostel and anybody, but with Gene Wilder it's a wondrous movie.

BIANCULLI: Well, he's so important to your legacy, and the casting in a lot of your projects is so critical. So to jump to the Broadway version of "The Producers," how did you decide, or how quickly did you decide, on Nathan Lane and Matthew Broderick?

BROOKS: Well, we already had Nathan right from the beginning. As soon as we thought of Max Bialystock, we thought of Nathan Lane, you know. And Nathan also thought Matthew was a great choice. Matthew was very, very good, talent, a good singer, he could do anything.

BIANCULLI: Well, he's an example of their chemistry. This is from the 2005 movie version of "The Producers" with Nathan Lane and Matthew Broderick, just a fast clip when they're discussing the upcoming show, and Matthew Broderick's Leo Bloom asks how much money they should be investing in their own show.

(SOUNDBITE OF MOVIE, "THE PRODUCERS")

NATHAN LANE: (As Max) Bloom, the two cardinal rules of being a Broadway producer are: One, never put your own money in the show.

MATTHEW BRODERICK: (As Leo) And two?

LANE: (As Max) Never put your own money in the show! Get it?

BRODERICK: (As Leo) Got it.

LANE: (As Max) Good.

BIANCULLI: No matter how many times I hear that, it's laugh-out-loud funny to me.

BROOKS: And it's true, I believe it. I've never put my own money in the show, you know. I put my talent on the line, and my money I save for Saturday night restaurants.

BIANCULLI: Now, you watched them perform so many times and then did the movie. How did their onstage chemistry change or deepen over time from your perspective?

BROOKS: Good word, good word, good word, David Bianculli, good word - it deepened. It did deepen because they got to love each other more and more in terms of their characters feeling the emotion for each other. So when finally, you know, near the end of their first year together, when - we were in tears when Leo makes that speech in the courtroom about how much - how good Bialystock really is, and how much he loves him. And so it did deepen.

BIANCULLI: I'm very curious: Have you seen "Spamalot" or "Book of Mormon"? And do you think that "The Producers" made those possible?

BROOKS: I do. I loved both of those shows, and they're both very, very good, very wonderful and very funny. And both of them never caved into excessive emotion. They went with naked sword, slashing away through comedy, both of them. And they're both incredible, terrific shows.

And I think they may owe a little to my breakthrough. You know, the musical comedy, except for maybe "On the Way to the Forum," was gone. And I brought back the, you know, "Bells Are Ringing" and "Where's Charlie?" I brought back the musical comedy, and I think in a way responsible for "Spamalot" and probably freeing people up to do "Mormon."

GROSS: We're listening to the interview Mel Brooks recorded with our TV critic David Bianculli. Tonight the PBS series "American Masters" presents a portrait of Brooks. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: Let's get back to the interview Mel Brooks recorded with our TV critic, David Bianculli. Tonight on PBS, "American Masters" presents a documentary about Brooks. Among Brooks' many awards is a Kennedy Center Honor, which he was presented in 2009.

BIANCULLI: What was it like to get a Kennedy Center Honors from Barack Obama, and one of the things that you were getting it for was "Blazing Saddles," with all the content in there?

BROOKS: Yeah, well, he - in his speech, first of all, he said - he kind of yelled at me. He said, Mel, stop talking, I'd like to say something nice about you, you know. And he said I loved - when I was - he said I was only 12 years old, I snuck in and I saw "Blazing Saddles," and he said it changed my life. It was a wonderful little speech. And he said, but I think the statute of limitations has run out. They can't get me for sneaking in, you know.

But he was very - and he said some wonderful, lovely things. I shouldn't say this because it's...

BIANCULLI: Well you should. Go on, say it.

BROOKS: I'll say it anyway. I was offered this, the Kennedy Center Honors, maybe a year or two before, and I said, well, I'm going to wait for another president, if I'm still alive, if you don't mind.

And I just didn't feel comfortable when Bush was president to accept the honors.

BIANCULLI: I don't know that anybody's ever done that before.

BROOKS: Well, I did it because I - you know, I - because I don't need - you know, had I not had, got 110 awards, maybe, you know, I'm an EGOT, so I don't need any more.

BIANCULLI: That's, let's see, Emmy, Grammy, Oscar and Tony.

BROOKS: Yeah, yeah. I mean that's OK. That's enough. And the Kennedy Center Honors, I really - at the moment I didn't need them. And I turned down - I don't want to - there's a lot of awards - the only award I haven't received, I think, is woman of the year. And that, you know, I don't know if that's not in the works just as an honorary woman of the year, you know. I may get that too.

But I'm not - I'm not looking for it. Listen, David, I'm a has-been, and I know it, and you know it, and it's very kind of you to let me be on the radio. Look, David, I was, Academy Award, I was there - I'm down to NPR, I'm down to radio.

(LAUGHTER)

BROOKS: I'm in shreds. Look at me. You know, look, I'm not even - it's public radio. I mean nobody's even paying for this. And this is my career. I'm finished. It's over. I'm picking up cigarette butts around the studio here.

BIANCULLI: And yet I have it from a fairly reliable source that you're tinkering around with making a Broadway musical version of "Blazing Saddles."

BROOKS: Well, it's annoying me, it is. It's really bothering me. It's really - I tell my mind there are other things. Let's pursue trying to get off Rolaids and being, you know, getting that stomach, you know, acid-free. But no, but "Blazing Saddles" keeps annoying me. So I mean I think the public would like it, and I think that if I got investors to put money into this "Blazing Saddles" musical that it would work everywhere except Broadway.

So maybe I'd take it out for a year - if I live, I don't know, I'm getting to be - I'll be 90 next week, you know. But if I - and then bring it to Broadway without the investors, you know, I always respect the people who put money in things - without them failing, you know, so at least they got their money back, and then we could take a chance.

BIANCULLI: Well, there are so many good songs already in "Blazing Saddles," and I figure this is a good excuse to play part of one, it's Madeline Kahn...

BROOKS: Oh, bless you, bless you, Bianculli.

BIANCULLI: Well, she's the one who did it, a frontier version of Marlene Dietrich singing "I'm Tired." It's a great song written by you. It's a fantastic performance and so comic, and let's just listen to a little of it.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "I'M TIRED")

MADELINE KAHN: (As Lili Von Shtupp) (Singing) Stage-door Johnnies constantly surround me. They always hound me with one request. Who can satisfy their lustful habit? I'm not a rabbit. I need some rest. I'm tired, sick and tired of love. I've had my fill of love from below and above. Tired, tired...

BIANCULLI: All right, what are you thinking right now?

BROOKS: Oh, I'm in tears thinking about Madeline, and what an incredibly gifted - a gift from God, Madeline Kahn, I mean the funniest and most talented comedienne, I think, including people like Carol Burnett, who are great, you know, and Gilda Radner, who was magnificent. But nobody - listen to me, David Bianculli - nobody could approach the magnificence and the wonder of Madeline Kahn. She was really a great gift to us all.

BIANCULLI: Well, she's quoted in your new "American Masters" biography as saying that you saw things in her that no one else saw. What did you see?

BROOKS: Well actually, I saw art, not just funny, but I saw a person who was gifted with art. You know, she's the only one could actually have worked in opera, as an opera singer, as a (unintelligible). She was that talented. Or I think she - I think she could work as a longshoreman in New Jersey.

(LAUGHTER)

BROOKS: I don't think there's anything that Madeline Kahn couldn't do.

BIANCULLI: Now, you seem to have a great track record directing and writing for women, I mean not only Madeline Kahn - Cloris Leachman, Terri Garr, getting really wonderful comic performances from these women. What was your method?

BROOKS: Well, you know, it was respecting their ability to deliver comedy, as well as, and sometimes a lot better than male comedians. And they knew that I respected their ability and their talent, and they gave all because of it. And they weren't ashamed or afraid to reveal maybe unconscious aspects of their comedy talent, which may have been a little off-color or a little crazy or a little bizarre that they wouldn't show anybody, but they'd show it to me because they knew I respected their, you know, the full range of their gifts.

BIANCULLI: Mel Brooks will continue his interview with our TV critic, David Bianculli, in the second half of the show. Tonight the PBS series "American Masters" presents a documentary about Brooks. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview our TV critic David Bianculli recorded with Mel Brooks. Tonight, the PBS series "American Masters," presents a documentary about Brooks called "Make A Noise." When we left off, Brooks was talking about his 1974 movie, "Blazing Saddles."

BIANCULLI: "Young Frankenstein" came out the same year as "Blazing Saddles." The stand down seen as Gene Wilder as the scientist and Peter Boyle as the creature singing "Puttin' on the Ritz," and I know that that was not your idea, that was co-writer Gene Wilder's.

BROOKS: Yes.

BIANCULLI: So how long did it take before you figured out he was right? And then I have a question about what sort of direction you gave to Peter Boyle for that number - especially his singing.

(LAUGHTER)

BROOKS: Well, actually, you know, when Gene first brought it up to show the wizardry of this, you know, Dr. Frankenstein, coming up with this incredible creature and re-animating dead tissue, and not only does it move, does it walk and talk, but it also dazzles you with song and dance, you know.

BIANCULLI: Mm-hmm.

BROOKS: So I think I said I think we're tearing it, Gene. You know, we're going too far. We want some of the verisimilitudeness(ph) quality that was in the, you know, in the original James Whale movie, you know, which was serious and scary and I don't want to lose the seriousness and the scariness of it just for silly comedy, you know, just for taking comedy too far. And he kept pushing. He said no, no, we'll show, demonstrate the doctor's ability to teach the monster. And finally he kept bugging me and I said look, OK, I'm going to shoot it and I'm going to put it aside and we'll see whether or not it's useful in the main body of the picture, OK? He said OK. That's all I ask. Just shoot it and look at it later when you're putting it together. And I shot it and I still was afraid of it. And then when I saw it later with all the film that we had collected, I said, gee, it may be the best thing in the film.

(LAUGHTER)

BROOKS: And I called Gene and I said you're absolutely right all the time and I'm glad we're - it's in, totally and I'm looking on the cutting room floor for any outtakes, you know.

BIANCULLI: And what direction did you give to Peter Boyle? Like how he - and was "Puttin' on the Ritz" always the first song choice?

BROOKS: Yes, always. Irving Berlin and I said, Peter, sing it from your heart. Sing it like it's a cry of love and freedom and everything you can think of that's good. And he did.

(Singing) Puttin' on the Ritz...

(LAUGHTER)

BIANCULLI: Well, we have the real thing to listen to here.

BROOKS: Yeah.

BIANCULLI: Let's go to...

BROOKS: OK.

BIANCULLI: ...Peter Boyle as the creature introduced by Gene Wilder as, I guess at this point he's still Frankenstein or...

BROOKS: Yeah. I think he is still Frankenstein.

BIANCULLI: OK. In "Young...

BROOKS: No. Wait a minute. I don't know it's maybe when a sitting on his lap he says call me Frankenstein. I don't know. You got to see the movie.

BIANCULLI: But here we are. Here we go. Yes. You do have to see this movie. Here it is from 1974.

(SOUNDBITE OF MOVIE, "YOUNG FRANKENSTEIN")

WILDER: (as Dr. Frankenstein) Ladies and Gentlemen, Mesdames et Messieurs, Damen und Herren, from what was once an inarticulate mass of lifeless tissues, may I present a cultured, sophisticated, man about town. Hit it.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "PUTTIN' ON THE RITZ")

WILDER: (Dr. Frankenstein) (Singing) If you're blue and you don't know where to go to, why don't you go where fashion sits?

(SOUNDBITE OF SNAPPING)

PETER BOYLE: (as Monster) (Singing) Puttin' on the Ritz.

WILDER: (Dr. Frankenstein) (Singing) Different types who wear a day coat. Pants with stripes or cutaway coat. Perfect fits.

BOYLE: (as Monster) (Singing) Puttin' on the Ritz.

WILDER: (Dr. Frankenstein) (Singing) Dressed up like a million dollar trouper. Trying mighty hard to look like Gary Cooper.

BOYLE: (as Monster) (Singing) Super-Dooper.

WILDER: (Dr. Frankenstein) (Singing) Come let's mix where Rockefellers...

BIANCULLI: You know, I have to thank you.

(LAUGHTER)

BIANCULLI: I have to thank you for that scene. It may be one of my favorite scenes in all of cinema comedy.

BROOKS: Alan Johnson is the choreographer who did "Springtime for Hitler," the big number and he also did, you know, "Puttin' on the Ritz." Alan Johnson, a great, great choreographer. And the two guys, you know, the two wings that helped me flight for movies are Alan Johnson for choreography and John Morris for musical score.

BIANCULLI: Mm-hmm.

BROOKS: And without those two guys none of my movies would have reached the heights it did.

BIANCULLI: Well, what I want to talk about now is your TV work. Starting at the very beginning, "Admiral Broadway Revue" and the "Your Show of Shows" - your first TV jobs. "Your Show of Shows"...

BROOKS: I've done too much. Listen, David, I've done too much for your broadcast.

(LAUGHTER)

BROOKS: Unless you want to spend a day using up NPR, all of NPR...

BIANCULLI: I'll do faster questions. I'll do faster questions. You do shorter answers.

BROOKS: You know, I'll do mine.

BIANCULLI: You're "Your Show of Shows," the writing room for Sid Caesar for your "Your Show of Shows" and the stuff he did afterwards, I still think is the best all-time collection of writing talent ever. And I wanted to know if you thought that and what it was like being in there. Was an imposing? Was it inspirational?

BROOKS: Looking back I agree, but at the time we were just a couple of pups in a cardboard box, you know, we're just fighting to get to our mom, fighting to get to King Caesar, you know...

BIANCULLI: Mm-hmm.

BROOKS: ...me. Me. My joke. My idea. My sketch. My, you know. But there was a lot of support and a lot of talent.

BIANCULLI: Well, name some of the pups.

BROOKS: Mel Tolkin.

BIANCULLI: Yes.

BROOKS: Well, Mel Tolkin was the head writer and, you know, a very deeply intellectual, artistic guy who put me onto people like Andreev and Nikolai Gogol. I mean I never read these guys and, you know, once I read "Dead Souls" by Nikolai Gogol, I knew there was great comic art in the world that I didn't know anything about. And he also knew about it because I was throwing up between parked cars waiting to get fired any day because I was just a kid from Williamsburg, Brooklyn and I was, and I should have been heading for the garment center, I should've been a shipping clerk, and here I was writing "The Admiral Broadway Revue" for Sid Caesar and so Tolkin got me a psychoanalyst.

(LAUGHTER)

BROOKS: And I didn't even know the word and I never heard of Freud, but it worked and it did help me get through some very rough emotional, you know, psychic times.

GROSS: We're listening to the interview Mel Brooks recorded with our TV critic David Bianculli. Tonight, the PBS series "American Masters" presents a portrait of Brooks. We'll hear more of the interview after break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: Let's get back to the interview Mel Brooks recorded with our TV critic David Bianculli. Tonight, on PBS, "American Masters" presents a documentary about Brooks.

BIANCULLI: I'm going to jump to the "2000 Year Old Man" now. You started this act at parties. You recorded an album. You won a Grammy. You went on from there. I figure before I ask you my questions about the "2000 Year Old Man," I'd give a taste. This is from you and Carl on the Andy Williams show from 1966.

BROOKS: Oh, good. I don't remember that. Let me hear it.

BIANCULLI: OK..

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE ANDY WILLIAMS SHOW")

(APPLAUSE)

CARL REINER: Of all the discoveries of all time, what would you consider the greatest? Would you say it was the wheel, the lever, fire?

BROOKS: Fire. Fire. Far and away, fire. Fire is the hottest thing going. Fire, you can't beat fire.

(LAUGHTER)

REINER: Really?

BROOKS: Fire used to warm us and light up our caves so we wouldn't walk into a wall, so we would marry our brother Bernie.

REINER: That's right.

BROOKS: Fire.

(LAUGHTER)

BROOKS: That's Satan's hell, fire. And cooking, oh, you can't be fire.

REINER: When did they first learn to cook with fire?

BROOKS: It was an accident. That was an accident. That chicken.

REINER: What?

BROOKS: Chicken walked into the fire by mistake and over. (makes sound) And over. Burnt. Burnt up.

(LAUGHTER)

REINER: What? That chicken?

BROOKS: Yes. We didn't use him. We kept around the cave as pets.

REINER: I see.

BROOKS: We love to hear eh, eh. We loved that. So we took it out to give it the funeral, you know, bury it, because it was our pet and we all went...

(SOUNDBITE OF SNIFFING)

BROOKS: Hey, that smells good.

(LAUGHTER)

BROOKS: So we ate them up and since then we've been eating chickens.

REINER: You know, I've heard this story, but I've heard that the animal that wandered into the fire accidentally was a pig.

BROOKS: Not in my cave.

(LAUGHTER)

BIANCULLI: That's Mel Brooks and Carl Reiner in one of their...

BROOKS: I remember that.

BIANCULLI: ..."2000Year Old Man" sketch. Do you remember how much of that if any was improvised?

BROOKS: Well, actually, when we were on television, we laid out the jokes. We laid out what we would do. When we made our first two albums, I said to Carl, don't tell me anything, nothing in advance, just hit me with questions than when I can't come up with a good answer, cut it. When I come up with a great answer, keep it in. And that's the way we did our first two albums, you know, various characters and, of course, the "2000 Year Old Man" emerged as the leading comedy force in the albums.

BIANCULLI: And Carl Reiner is widely and rightly acknowledged as one of the great straight men of all time and working opposite him must've been a joy. But your friendship with him goes far past the projects you've done together and now you're getting together almost every night to watch movies and have dinner. It sounds like such a nice thing to do.

BROOKS: Yeah. Well, it is. He's my best friend and, you know, we're like (unintelligible) tuck in bloom, we're joined at the hip. And he lost his wife may be a year or two years ago. I lost my wife maybe 10 years ago, so it's actually eight - to be exact. And we miss them and they loved each other too, so we can't find any other people that understand our ancient references, you know.

(LAUGHTER)

BROOKS: And so, you know, we're very comfortable with each other because we never have to worry about images, what we say or what we do. And he's still, you know, he still, Carl is still a pretty damn funny guy...

BIANCULLI: Mm-hmm.

BROOKS: And can do really, I mean, the other night we had an "American Masters" pre...

BIANCULLI: And Carl is what - is Carl 90?

BROOKS: No, he's not 90. No. He's 91.

(LAUGHTER)

BROOKS: He...

(LAUGHTER)

BIANCULLI: Sorry to have insulted him. Yeah.

BROOKS: Yeah. Yeah. Don't insult. But he's 91 and he's really doing what he - what a lot of guys, you know, half his age, you know, could not even think of doing.

BIANCULLI: Now when you guys are watching movies together, just for your own enjoyment, and you're watching comedies, who and what, you know, gets you to laugh the most now?

BROOKS: Well, that's a tough question because if you say one name you're going to hurt somebody else's feelings. But, you know, I like the...

BIANCULLI: But without being exclusionary, what's the last one that you both watched together that made you both laugh? I'm not saying be inclusive, but what's the most recent one?

BROOKS: Well, I think "Wreck-It Ralph." We saw the cartoon, we liked it.

BIANCULLI: Mm-hmm.

BROOKS: With John C. Riley playing Ralph. I don't know if you the cartoon.

BIANCULLI: Yeah. No. I know that. The...

BROOKS: And we just loved, you know, Penelope played by Sarah Silverman. She's glorious.

BIANCULLI: Yes.

BROOKS: And generally, she's one of the few new, you know, there's Amy Schumer come along too who is wonderful. But I mean, but there are people that come along that are really good and funny, you know, and Silverman was - we both love her.

BIANCULLI: I want to play one last clip. This is one that I absolutely adore. It's not a film that you directed. It's a remake of "To Be Or Not To Be" in which you and your wife Anne Bancroft play actors in Poland on the eve of World War II. And there's an early scene where you to perform a singing and dancing duet in Polish of "Sweet Georgia Brown." To me it looks like pure joy and...

BROOKS: It was. It was pure joy. It was pure joy.

BIANCULLI: So can you tell me about how was that song chosen? How much rehearsal did it take to do it? And what do you remember about filming it?

BROOKS: Well, it's one of these - yeah, "Sweet Georgia Brown" is one of Anne's favorite songs and one of mine. And, you know, we often sing it together anyway and because I could do the harmonies and stuff. And with "To Be Or Not To Be" we said well, let's do that, and but we're in Poland, I suggested we do it in Polish.

(LAUGHTER)

BROOKS: You know, and just the only English we would do would be "Sweet Georgie Brown," you know, and it was, it worked. Well, all I can tell you is that unfortunately, the filmmaker and me failed because we opened with it. You can only go downhill.

BIANCULLI: Mm-hmm.

BROOKS: You could only go downhill from "Sweet Georgia Brown" in Polish. You can't, you know, there's no way of topping it.

BIANCULLI: How much rehearsal did it take?

BROOKS: Oh, about a month, you know, because we had a Polish teacher who taught Eastern languages - when I say Eastern I mean Russian and Polish at UCLA - and she'd spend an hour with us every day working on the song and working on the lyrics that are Polish because I don't know, she and somebody else did a translation of it.

BIANCULLI: Well...

BROOKS: And then we had to learn it.

BIANCULLI: Mm-hmm.

BROOKS: We had to learn it, we had to learn, you know, how to sing it in Polish.

BIANCULLI: Well, on the radio you can't get the choreography and you can't get that you guys are dressed elegantly and singing enthusiastically, but you can certainly hear the joy from this. Here's a taste from "To Be Or Not To Be" with Mel Brooks and Anne Bancroft singing "Sweet Georgia Brown" in another language.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SWEET GEORGIA BROWN")

ANNE BANCROFT AND MEL BROOKS: (Singing in Polish)

BIANCULLI: I get such joy listening to these clips that I forget the questions that I want to ask you on the way out of this. That was Anne Bancroft and Mel Brooks singing in "To Be Or Not To Be" from 1983. Does that bring back specific memories?

BROOKS: Of course. I mean, I think of all the rehearsals we did and the joy of finally being together, working on a movie together and being there every day. And, you know, so we saw each other for a period of three or four months 24 hours a day. And it wasn't bad. It was kind of beautiful.

BIANCULLI: If you don't mind me asking, this is a personal question not a cinematic one. Was there a secret to your marriage?

BROOKS: I don't know if there was a secret. I don't know what you would call a secret. I think we - from the first minute I saw her I fell in love and it lasted until the day she died. That's something. That was the secret. I mean I just fell in love with her.

BIANCULLI: That was a pretty good answer. So thank you. Thank you very much, Mel. Congratulations.

BROOKS: Thank you, David. This has almost been fun.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: Mel Brooks spoke with FRESH AIR TV critic David Bianculli. Tonight the PBS series "American Masters" presents a documentary about Brooks. David teaches at Rowan University.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SWEET GEORGIA BROWN")

BROOKS: (Singing in Polish)

GROSS: Coming up, our jazz critic Kevin Whitehead reviews a new box set of Sarah Vaughn's jazz recordings from 1954 to '58. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

TERRY GROSS, HOST: Our jazz critic Kevin Whitehead says everybody loves jazz singer Sarah Vaughan, even if they disagree about when she was at her peak. Kevin favors Vaughan in the 1950s. A new anthology is right up his alley.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THEY CAN'T TAKE THAT AWAY FROM ME")

SARAH VAUGHAN: (singing) The way you hold your hat, the way your sip your tea, the memory, the memory of all that, no, they can't take that away from me. The way your smile just beams, the way you sing off key, key. The way you hold my dreams. No, no, they can't take that away from me. We may never...

KEVIN WHITEHEAD, BYLINE: Sarah Vaughan, 1954. She'd come up a decade earlier with bebop lions Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker, starting in Earl Hines' big band. Hines had hired her as his singer and deputy pianist. Dizzy praised her fine ear for chords she grasped the arcane refinements of bebop harmony. Vaughan put them to good use as a singer, picking notes other vocalists wouldn't. This is the bridge to her second classic version of "Lover Man."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "LOVER MAN")

VAUGHAN: (singing) I've heard it said that the thrill of romance can be like a heavenly dream. I go to bed with a prayer that you'll make love to me. Strange as it seems. Someday...

WHITEHEAD: A lot of jazz singing is about consonants - the percussive attacks the music swings from. With Sarah Vaughan, it's also about the way she rolled out her vowels, reveling in a held note like Miles Davis. Later, her vibrato could get excessive, but in the mid-'50s her taste and control are a marvel.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG)

VAUGHAN: (singing) Swing slow, swing low. Let me know that it's more than the night, that it's more than the light. Let the glow on my...

WHITEHEAD: This music is from an anthology of Sarah Vaughan on the MRC label: "Divine: The Jazz Albums 1954-1958." As opposed to her pop albums with strings and some of the same tunes. It's six albums-plus on four CDs, recorded live or in the studio with bands big and small. All but one session is sparked by another bebop institution, drummer Roy Haines. He has a springy beat using brushes, and doesn't overplay.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "HONEYSUCKLE ROSE")

VAUGHAN: (singing) I don't buy sugar. You just have to touch my cup. You're my sugar. It's so sweet when you stir it up. When I'm taking sips from your tasty lips seems the honey fairly drips. You're confection. Goodness knows, honeysuckle rose.

WHITEHEAD: Sarah Vaughan had a gallery of vocal timbres: gravelly to silky, round or strident, white-gloved or blues-drenched. Her pitch range was operatic and her low notes have uncommon power. Vaughan drew inspiration from great soloists and gave it right back. Here she is with Clifford Brown.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "APRIL IN PARIS")

VAUGHAN: (singing) April in Paris. Chestnuts in blossom. Holiday tables under the trees. April...

WHITEHEAD: That leap from the basement to the second floor kills me. Two live albums from Chicago nightclubs are standouts, partly for their glorious imperfections. Vaughan didn't know some of the material so well, taking lyric sheets on stage, and she sometimes has to improvise her way out of trouble. Recording in the wee, wee hours at the London House, she keeps bobbling the start of the last tune of the night, "Thanks for the Memory." But with every take, her entrance gets more elaborate.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THANKS FOR THE MEMORY")

VAUGHAN: (singing) Thanks for the memory of candlelight and wine, castles on the Rhine. (speaking) Parthenon. Parthenon? Parthenon. I got stung with a word.

WHITEHEAD: All right. Take two.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THANKS FOR THE MEMORY")

VAUGHAN: (singing) Tha-a-a-anks for the memory. Of candlelight and wine, castles on the Rhine. The Parthenon - (speaking) I don't get - I don't get this word here.

WHITEHEAD: It's a temple in Greece. Third time's the charm.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THANKS FOR THE MEMORY")

VAUGHAN: (singing) Tha-a-a-a-a-a-a-anks for the memory of candlelight and wine, castles on the Rhine, the Parthenon, the moments on the Hudson River line. How lovely. It was so fair...

WHITEHEAD: If anything, she sounds more focused and at ease after the false starts - at least till she blows another line, and does her best to spoil the take. That just made it more of a keeper. The live dates in the Sarah Vaughan set show how a great improviser can always recover from a tailspin. The beboppers were big on that: putting the wrongest(ph) note in a context where it sounds like the perfect thing.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THANKS FOR THE MEMORY")

VAUGHAN: (singing) So thanks for the most craziest, upset and downsidest recording day I ever had in my life. Ga-ga-ga-ga. Da-da-da-da...

GROSS: Kevin Whitehead writes for Point of Departure, Downbeat, and eMusic and is the author of "Why Jazz?" He reviewed the new Sarah Vaughan box set "Divine: The Jazz Albums 1954-1958" on Verve Select.

You can download Podcasts of our show on our website freshair.npr.org.

Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.