Singer David Johansen: Return of the N.Y. Dolls

DATE December 7, 2004 ACCOUNT NUMBER N/A
TIME 12:00 Noon-1:00 PM AUDIENCE N/A
NETWORK NPR
PROGRAM Fresh Air

Interview: David Johansen talks about being a member of The New
York Dolls and performing as Buster Poindexter
TERRY GROSS, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

My guest is musician and actor David Johansen. He was a founding member and
front man for the early '70s glam band The New York Dolls. Later in his
lounge-lizard persona of Buster Poindexter, Johansen had the hit, "Hot, Hot,
Hot." And more recently he's been playing acoustic blues with his band David
Johansen and the Harry Smiths.

This past summer, Johansen and the other surviving members of The New York
Dolls reunited for a festival in England. Their performance is recorded on
the new CD and DVD called "The Return of the New York Dolls: Live from Royal
Festival Hall." The Dolls formed in 1971; they were one of the first straight
bands to dress glam. They wore lipstick, eye makeup, platform heels and
sexually ambiguous clothes. Their sound was loud and rough and, as the
Rolling Stone Encyclopedia of Rock & Roll says, they set the stage for the
punk movement that followed five years later.

Let's start with a track from the new CD. This is "Looking For A Kiss."
The Dolls used to play this in the '70s. It was written by David Johansen,
who sings lead.

(Soundbite of "Looking For A Kiss")

THE NEW YORK DOLLS: When I say I'm in love, you best believe I'm in love,
L-U-V.

(Singing) I always saw you just before the dawn. All the other kids were just
draggin' along. I couldn't believe the way you seemed to be. Remembering the
things you used to say to me. But I know I can't be wasting time 'cause I
gotta have my fun. I gotta get some fun! I gotta keep on movin', I can't
stop till it's all done. Never done. Listen when I tell you got no time for
fix. I just gotta make a date, can't afford to miss. If there's one reason
I'm telling you this, I feel bad, I've been lookin' for a kiss. Well, if you
tell me why those kids are movin' so slow. Is it that they just...

GROSS: That's The New York Dolls from their new CD "The Return of The New
York Dolls: Live from Royal Festival Hall 2004."

David Johansen, welcome back to FRESH AIR. You want to tell the story of how
Morrissey invited you to reunite the band and/or the surviving members of the
band and do this concert?

Mr. JOHANSEN: Well when he was a kid, he was the president of The Dolls fan
club and he--so I've had a couple of run-ins with him over the years and so he
wasn't, you know, a total stranger to me. So he called me up and, you know,
so I wasn't, like, shocked that he called me, because sometimes he asked me
what a word in a song means or something. He's kind of like a Dolls-ologist,
and usually I have no idea what he's talking about.

But he proposed this--What is it called?--the Meltdown festival, and every
year in London they have this--I don't know how long it lasts, two weeks or
something. And they get some English rock 'n' roll star to curate it, and he
asks, you know, his favorite groups or singers or acts, or whatever--I mean,
it could be a ventriloquist; it could be anything. So he asked me to do this,
and when he asked it, it was the last thing on my mind, you know, it was the
furthest thing from my mind so, I was like, `I don't think so,' and he was
like, `Oh, please, please, please.' And you know, I said to him, `would you
do that with your old group?' and he said, `Absolutely not.' And I said,
`Aha!'

GROSS: (Laughs)

Mr. JOHANSEN: But then, you know, it was something I really never considered
doing because of, you know, Johnny, who I thought was, like, essential to the
whole thing--Johnny Thunder, being in Woodlawn, or wherever he lives. So I
said, `You know, let me sleep on it.' Because I had been going through this
phase--I think I'm kind of still in it--where I don't want to reject things
out of hand, you know, that kind of like `been there, done that, let's do
something else' kind of thing. I just want to give things a little more
consideration. So I considered it and I thought, you know, it'd be great to
get together with the cads and play a little and have a couple of laughs. And
so I acquiesced the next day, I think, or the day after that.

GROSS: So when you were on stage, you know, with the reunited and the new
version of The Dolls and you were doing the old Dolls songs, did you have any,
like, flashbacks to things that you had totally forgotten about? Like, did
memories, like, surface of things that were really interesting, that you had
completely forgotten about until you were back in that setting again?

Mr. JOHANSEN: Well, I have memories but, God, they're vague, you know?
(Laughs) I remember the first time we made a record with Todd Rundgren, and
the only thing I remember is the lights on the control board, I thought they
were really pretty.

GROSS: (Laughs)

Mr. JOHANSEN: And that's really the only memory I have...

GROSS: Any historian would want to know all about that.

Mr. JOHANSEN: ...of making that first record. You know, people think I'm
kidding when they ask, `Well, what was it like making that first record?'
because, you know, it kind of became this benchmark kind of record. But
that's really the only memory I have of it. But, you know, the thing that
struck me was, I had to kind of sit down and listen to the music and write the
words down and learn them. And I thought...

GROSS: Oh, you had to relearn your own songs?

Mr. JOHANSEN: Yeah, because, you know, I hadn't sung them in God knows how
long, you know. I mean, it wasn't like I had to relearn them from scratch
because they kind of come back to you, but I had to have some kind of thing to
look at. And, you know, I find that when I write something it goes into my
head better than if I just try to memorize it. So I was writing, for example,
like, "Human Being" and I was thinking, `God, how did I write that song? This
is great.' (Laughs)

GROSS: (Laughs)

Mr. JOHANSEN: I mean, it really holds up; you know, it's kind of like a
declaration that, I think, is timeless. So there's a lot of stuff like that
in the songs which--let me explain something to you. There was a time, you
know, when we started The Dolls and we were really such a gang and it was like
us against the world, and we were really trying to evolve music into something
new and it was, you know, very kind of almost militant to us. And then over
the years, you know, in the history books, you know, like the Rolling Stone
Complete Encyclopedia of Rock & Roll, or something, you know, you go into
Coliseum(ph) and sit down and you look in the appendix and see where your
name is and see what they say about you. It's not like you buy the book. And
they would always say, you know, `They were trashy, they were flashy, they
were drug addicts, they were drag queens,' you know? And that whole kind of
trashy blah-blah-blah thing, I think, over the years kind of settled in my
mind as, `Oh yeah, that's what it was,' you know? And then by going back to
it and deconstructing it and then putting it back together again, I realized
that, you know, it really is art and that some critic at one time had come up
with this catchall phrase that, as you know, once somebody says it, then
everybody just looks it up and they say it because nobody does...

GROSS: Right.

Mr. JOHANSEN: ...nobody has an original idea.

GROSS: In spite of the fact that you don't remember a whole lot about parts
of the early days of The Dolls, do you remember writing a song, "Personality
Crisis"?

Mr. JOHANSEN: Well, you know, I don't remember exactly sitting down and
writing the words, but I remember where I got the name, because I was kind of
like an acolyte in Charles Ludlam's Ridiculous Theatre when I was a kid.
This is when I was, you know, 17, 18, 19. And Charles...

GROSS: And let's just describe what Charles Ludlam's Theater was. He used to
dress in drag a lot as the leading lady in these, like, Greta Garbo kind of
roles. And...

Mr. JOHANSEN: Yeah. But it was so much more than that.

GROSS: Yeah.

Mr. JOHANSEN: It was really very intelligent stuff that he used to do. And
he used to combine a lot of genres of, you know, classical playwriting in, you
know, like Moliere, he would put in with something kitschy that was present,
you know, present-day stuff and he would put--he would make this melange of
ideas that were just so--they would come out so original and brilliant
that--you know, people throw the word `genius' around, but he was actually a
genius. He was one of the most intelligent people I think I've ever met. But
I think one day we were at a rehearsal or something, and he just said, `Oh,
God, I'm having a personality crisis,' and I just thought, `Oh, that's really
good,' and I wrote it down, you know, "Personality Crisis." And that's really
all I remember about writing the song, and the song came from that.

GROSS: Well, why don't we hear "Personality Crisis" as performed by The New
York Dolls at the Meltdown festival over the summer. So this is from the new
CD, and there's a DVD version of this, too, "The Return of The New York
Dolls."

(Soundbite of "Personality Crisis")

THE NEW YORK DOLLS: (Singing) Whoa! Yow! Yeah, yeah, yeah! Yeah, baby, no!
No, baby, yeah! Yeah, no, no, yeah, no! You're my sister. I'm your mother.
We can't take it this week. Her friends don't want another speech. Hoping
for a better day to hear what she's got to say. All about that personality
crisis. You got it while it was hot. Come on! But now frustration and
heartache is what you got. Whatcha got? Personality crisis! Personality!
Personality!

GROSS: We'll talk more with David Johansen after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: My guest is David Johansen. He was one of the founding members of The
New York Dolls. Their reunion performance has been released on a new CD and
DVD.

In the liner notes for the DVD and the CD, you write about Arthur Kane. This
was his last performance. He was the bass player of the band. And it was
Arthur Kane who knocked on your door and recruited you to be in The Dolls when
the band was being formed. He died just a few weeks after the concert. Did
you even know he was sick?

Mr. JOHANSEN: No, and neither did he. You know, he had had this incredible
life, Arthur. And actually, a friend of his is making a documentary about it
as we speak, and I guess it'll come out sometime, and people can get an idea
of what his life was like. He was just this really brilliant guy who had this
incredible insight into reality that was--it was just one step to the left of
probably the most radical people I had ever met at that point. And I don't
even mean, you know, politics. I just mean in the way he saw things. And
they were always spot on. And he was just so brilliant to me. And then he
kind of--he had come from this family that was just like hell on earth. And
he got a taste for the booze and went through, like, a lot of years of just
being drunk all the time. And he got--I remember he got to this point where
you would just say, `Hi, Arthur,' and he would just say, `Woof.' His only
word became `woof.'

Anyway, he went through all this stuff--I mean, I can't begin to tell you--in
his life. He fell out a window. He did this. He got hit by a car. He did
this a few times. And then he came out the other side, and he got involved
with, like, you know, the Mormons and became the librarian at the family
history office at the Mormon Tabernacle. And so he was, like, this Mormon,
but with this really kind of demented outlook on life that--so he wasn't, you
know, like a proselytizer. He's a--when I saw him again, he said, `You know,
I'm not a proselytizing Mormon.' But he just was so wonderful, and I can't
explain to you what kind of a guy he was, because there's no one you can
compare him to.

GROSS: Well, let...

Mr. JOHANSEN: He had this very high voice, and he was 6'5" or something.

GROSS: Let's talk about how he did recruit you for the band. He knocked on
your door, your apartment in Manhattan. You were, what, around 19 or
something?

Mr. JOHANSEN: Yeah.

GROSS: What did he tell you about this new band?

Mr. JOHANSEN: Well, there was a guy who lived in my building who I used to
kind of, you know, jam with and strum guitars, and he was this Colombian guy
who played bongos. And we used to just sit around and play music. And he
knew Billy Murcia, who was the original drummer in The Dolls. And he told
these guys who were looking for a singer that I was a singer, and he thought I
was a pretty good singer.

And so one day, Arthur was just at my door with Billy, and Arthur was about
three feet taller than Billy and he just said, `I hear you're a singer.' And
I said, `Yeah,' and I invited them in, and we started talking, and they said
they had a band and they were looking for a singer. And I was looking for a
band, and we just--really that day actually, we left my apartment and went,
like, four blocks up the street to Johnny Thunders' apartment where there
was some drums and guitars and stuff and started to play, and we were a band
essentially.

GROSS: What were some of the things that you knew you didn't want to be
about, the kind of music that you thought had ended?

Mr. JOHANSEN: Oh, you know, at that time, there was, like, these interminable
drum solos. And you know what happens when the drum solo stops. That's the
worst. Then the bass takes a solo. And stuff like that, you know. And we
just wanted to kind of have some really wham-bam songs. And I mean, for me,
the whole thing was, like--if you have to compare it to something--like a
Little Richard kind of presentation.

And I can remember when I was really young and I would go to the Merita Kay
Shows(ph), you know, and I saw Mitch Ryder. And, you know, these shows had 30
acts, and everybody would come out and do two or three minutes, and Mitch
Ryder would come out and do a medley of his three big hits. He would come out
in kind of like a tuxedo, and within 45 seconds, he was half naked and
sweating like a pig. And we just wanted to make an explosion, you know, of
excitement. So that's what was missing. You know, rock 'n' roll had become
very kind of pedantic and meandering, and it was looking for something, but it
was like an actor in search of a play or something, you know.

GROSS: Now on the album cover of the album "The New York Dolls," you're all
dressed in this kind of trashy drab with a lot of eye makeup and lipstick.
You're wearing a bouffant wig. I assume it's a wig.

Mr. JOHANSEN: No, it wasn't a wig.

GROSS: It wasn't a wig?

Mr. JOHANSEN: No.

GROSS: You teased your hair for it, 'cause it's very bouffant.

Mr. JOHANSEN: Yeah, they--well, somebody teased it.

GROSS: Somebody teased it, right. And you're wearing what looks like capri
pants and high-heeled clogs, an open cardigan revealing your bare chest. And
you're staring at yourself in the mirror of a makeup compact?

Mr. JOHANSEN: Right.

GROSS: And the band's name is written in lipstick.

Mr. JOHANSEN: Right.

GROSS: For those of us who didn't get to see you on stage, how did that
compare with how you actually looked on stage?

Mr. JOHANSEN: Well, that was probably, you know--I mean, I think, you know,
to the average civilian, it probably didn't look any different, but to us, we
were, like, dressing up a little bit more, make it a little special for the
record cover, you know.

You know, Sylvian was in the rag trade with Billy. They had this little
sweater company called Truth of It(ph). Well, they sold it to this company
called Truth And Soul. They used to make these Poorboy sweaters. They had a
loom. And through that, they knew a lot of people who actually are very kind
of famous designers now, but who were just getting started. And I think it
was, like, Betsey Johnson and these women that she used to work with. They
had a store in St. Mark's Place, and they knew a photographer, and they knew
a makeup guy, and they knew this and that. And you know, we didn't know
anything about that stuff. I think they helped to facilitate that photo
session.

GROSS: What inspired your interest in or willingness to be in a kind of drag
for performances? I mean, you mentioned you had been with Charles Ludlam's
Ridiculous Theatre, and drag was often a part of their performances in
theater. So where did you see it fitting into your music?

GROSS: Well, you know, we were, you know--the hotbed of revolution at that
time was, you know, St. Mark's Place on Second Avenue. And through that, you
know, there were so many artists there and, you know, actors and people who
were doing these plays, like the Ridiculous people. And there was, you know,
filmmakers and poets and painters, and we were the band of that crowd. I
mean, it wasn't like we were the band of even New York City. You know, we
were the band, basically, of the East Village, you know.

And it wasn't so much like a sexual thing, 'cause, you know, like sexuality
refers to, like, biological aspects. It was more like a gender thing, you
know. And gender is, like, you know, like the cultural differences that grow
up around the biological differences, so instead of, like, male and female,
like, gender is really masculine and feminine, right? I think the trick for
us at the time was to decide which characteristics were sex and which were
gender, you know. And, you know, because there's certain things that males
do and there's certain things females do. I mean, the universe didn't make
two sexes for nothing.

GROSS: Did a lot of people early on assume that you were gay because of the
way you dressed in performing or because of the album cover?

Mr. JOHANSEN: I don't know. I don't know. I mean, it was obvious we weren't
gay. I mean, you know, but maybe to some people it was, you know?

GROSS: Uh-huh.

Mr. JOHANSEN: You know how some people, you know--I mean, to some people,
everybody's gay, you know. Like, you could say, like--you could be talking to
somebody and go, `Oh, that Hitler,' and they go, `Gay!' you know. So I mean,
some people just think everybody's gay, but I don't know. We were, like,
these kind of street kids from, you know, St. Mark's Place, you know. And we
just had this idea that, you know, at the time, masculine meant strong and
assertive, feminine meant weak and demure, and this was a time of, like,
redefinition of the roles, you know. It was overdue. And it was just part of
evolution, I think, you know. And everything kind of transcends and goes
beyond where it went before. And otherwise, what's the use of doing anything,
you know? Everything's always trying to establish new limits and then
transcend them and on and on and on, and that's what the world is all about.

GROSS: David Johansen will be back in the second half of the show. The Dolls
reunion CD and DVD is called "The Return of The New York Dolls: Live from
Royal Festival Hall." I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

THE NEW YORK DOLLS: (Singing) Trash! Go pick it up. Take them lights away.
Trash! Go pick it up. Don't take your life away.

(Announcements)

(Soundbite of "Private World")

THE NEW YORK DOLLS: (Singing) Breakdown.

GROSS: Coming up, more of our interview with David Johansen about the return
of The New York Dolls. Also, we remember mystery novelist Joseph Hansen. He
created one of the genre's first gay private eyes. He's died at the age of
81.

(Soundbite of music)

THE NEW YORK DOLLS: (Singing) Well, just lost a lover who done found somebody
else. I get cool and lonely, feeling sorry for myself. I need a private
world, a private world. Oh, you call that drivin', then see us dream. How
could it last? I'm trying had not to scream. Private world. Come on,
private world. Well, the joint starts shakin', it's ready to crumble. The
boys are dukin', lookin' for a rumble in the private world. I need a private
world, one that is movin'. At least I'm movin.' Better shut that door.
Private world, private girl, private world. Better keep it confidential.

(Announcements)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with actor and musician
David Johansen. In 1971 he co-founded the glam rock band The New York
Dolls. The band never sold many records, but it's become legendary and set
the stage for the punk rock movement that followed. The surviving members of
The Dolls reunited for a festival last summer in England. Their performance
has been recorded on a new CD and DVD called "The Return of the New York
Dolls: Live from Royal Festival Hall."

Let me ask you about a couple of bands and what your first reaction was when
you heard them or saw them and how that affected you. Let's start with Mick
Jagger since, you know, I think you've been very influenced by him,
particularly the early Rolling Stones stuff. So what was your first reaction
in seeing the Stones, seeing Jagger?

Mr. JOHANSEN: When I was a kid?

GROSS: Yeah.

Mr. JOHANSEN: You mean like on "Ed Sullivan" or something?

GROSS: Or "Hollywood Palace."

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: Did you see that one?

Mr. JOHANSEN: Yeah. I mean, I thought they were great, you know? Yeah, I
mean, I thought they were so cool, you know, and I like their music, you know,
because--I think probably the first record I ever bought when I was a kid was
like Lightnin' Hopkins and Muddy Waters and music like that. So I think when
the Rolling Stones came out and they were playing that kind of music, I
thought, like, `Oh, white people can play this music?' You know...

GROSS: OK.

Mr. JOHANSEN: ...that's a revelation to me.

GROSS: The Shangri-Las. What did you first think when you heard or saw them?

Mr. JOHANSEN: Well, that's kind of like a camp thing. I mean, you know, The
Shangri-Las were like the ultimate girl group. I mean, you know, you take The
Ronettes and the Shirelles and on and on and on, and they were actually
making, you know, real music, whereas The Shangri-Las were kind of like a
cartoon, you know? And I just love that aspect about them. And, I mean, you
know, they couldn't sing and--I don't know. But they had these songs that,
you know, Shadow Morton would dig up for them that would be just perfect
kind of teen melos(ph), you know, as they say in Variety, like these
melodramas that--the first time I saw them, I just thought they were such a
hoot, and just--I thought they were perfect. Let's put it that way. I mean,
I thought, `This cannot be improved upon.' This is the height of pop kind of
fun and drama and everything--sex--everything rolled into one. It was just...

GROSS: Their most famous song is probably "Leader of the Pack," but...

Mr. JOHANSEN: Yeah.

GROSS: ...The Dolls did a cover of "Give Him a Great Big Kiss," but it was
"Give Her a Great Big Kiss" when you did it. And...

Mr. JOHANSEN: Yeah. On the new DVD we do another one--which one is it?
It's not "You Can Never Go Home Anymore." It's--oh, "Out in the Streets" we
do. You know that one?

GROSS: Yeah, well...

Mr. JOHANSEN: (Singing) You don't hang around with the guy no more.

Yeah, we always do a Shangri-La song; it's just a superstition.

GROSS: Well, I thought we'd go back to 1973 for this one and hear "Give Her
a Great Big Kiss.

Mr. JOHANSEN: All right.

GROSS: This is really a lot of fun. So, OK, let's hear it. Here is it.

(Soundbite of "Give Her a Great Big Kiss")

THE NEW YORK DOLLS: (Singing) I'm going to walk right up to her, give her a
great big kiss. Ow! I tell her that I love her. I tell her that I care.
I'll tell her that I'll always be there. Hey, is she a good dancer? Well,
what do you mean is she a good dancer? Tell me, how does she dance? Close.
Very, very close. Tell you more. I'll tell you more. I'll tell you more.
I'll tell you more. OK, I bought myself a sweater. I thought it'd match her
eyes. Dirty fingernails. Oh, boy, what a prize. A tight khaki pants, high
button shoes. She's always looking like she's got the blues. When I see her
in th estreet, my heart takes a leap and skips a beat. I'm going to walk
right up to her, give her a great big kiss. Moi! Tell her that I love her.
I tell her that I care. I tell her that I'll always be there. I tell her
that I love her...

GROSS: That's The New York Dolls recorded in 1973. My guest is David
Johansen. And there's a new recording. The New York Dolls reunited over the
summer for a concert, and so there's a CD and a DVD called "The Return of The
New York Dolls: Live from Royal Festival Hall 2004."

The band was originally so used to performing, like, in Manhattan Village
where people, like, knew the band. The people who came were a part of the
same, like, arts subculture that the band...

Mr. JOHANSEN: Right.

GROSS: ...was a part of. But when you went on the road in America, did you
start playing in places where people weren't kindred spirits in the same way,
and they didn't necessarily get what you were doing and they didn't know how
to react to it?

Mr. JOHANSEN: Yes and no. I mean, it's very interesting. Like, you know,
there were, like, Rust Belt places, you know, like Detroit and Cleveland and
places like that, that people would go crazy for us. And they would come to
the shows all dressed up, you know, and--Chicago. And, you know, we were
really well-received in Los Angeles and San Francisco. And we used to play a
lot in Florida, you know, Miami, and we used to play in Atlanta and be very
well-accepted.

And then we used to also--you know, we were friends with Lynyrd Skynyrd at the
time. We were kind of kindred spirits, and we would go on tours of like state
fairs and, like, tertiary markets in Missouri together. And we would have a
great time, you know. I know in Memphis I got arrested on stage one night for
allegedly--you know, it was like the Alice Tully Hall of Memphis, and it was
this nice clean room. And there had been articles in the newspaper that we
were coming to pied-piper all the children to the end of the world or
whatever. And we thought it was funny when we read it, but I actually got
arrested on stage and...

GROSS: What for?

Mr. JOHANSEN: ...went to the hoosegow in Memphis, which is--I was dressed
like Liza Minnelli at the time, so it wasn't the most relaxing night I ever
had.

GROSS: (Laughs) How did people respond to you in prison?

Mr. JOHANSEN: In jail?

GROSS: Yeah.

Mr. JOHANSEN: I just, like, hid under these, like, Lysol-smelling, like, army
blankets. And then this guy woke up and he went like, `Oh, damn, you're David
Johansen,' and I was like, `Quiet, quiet, quiet.' And then he woke up this
bear, and the bear was growling and I was like, `Oh, my God.' My knees were
like, you know, rattling under these covers. But I got bailed out at, like,
dawn.

GROSS: What were the charges?

Mr. JOHANSEN: Inciting a riot. You know, the cops wanted to mess the thing
up, and they started beating on kids 'cause they got up and danced. And I
stopped the music, and I started explaining to this officer that this child he
was abusing may be, you know, the mayor's kid or a nephew or something and his
job would be in jeopardy. And then they just threw me in cuffs and dragged me
away for inciting a riot. I may not have used the exact same language.

GROSS: Right. I understand. Why did The New York Dolls break up?

Mr. JOHANSEN: Inertia. I don't know. You know, I think we got to a point
where--I like to think, you know, it was a project that we finished, but there
was, like, factions in the group that were, you know, more interested in drugs
than in playing music. And it just kind of became for me--I mean, I can only
speak for myself, you know? I--for me it became untenable.

GROSS: What did you think when you saw the Sex Pistols, the Ramones? Your
band, The Dolls, preceded punk, but it was certainly influential on a lot of
punk bands and had the same sensibility in a lot of ways. So when you saw
that sensibility just really become so popular, what did you think?

Mr. JOHANSEN: I thought every new idea begins as heresy and winds up as
superstition. I think--I never saw the Sex Pistols, but I saw the Ramones
because they used to rehearse down the hall from me. I forget if I was in The
Dolls or in my next band. But I remember Joey Ramone came to the room I was
rehearsing in, and, you know, they have these buildings in New York with a
hundred bands playing at once. It's like--it would drive a monk insane. And
he came by and said he wanted me to come down the hall and hear his band, and
I went down the hall to hear his band and I probably said, you know, `You're a
nice guy. Why don't you just give up?' You know? I told the Talking Heads
they should give up. I mean, I would be the worst A&R man in the history of
show business because I'd tell all these bands in the beginning that, `You're
a good kid. Why don't you get a real job and a house?' you know. So I
don't--what do I know? I didn't think anything about it being influenced by
me or anything like that. I was just--probably I had a headache and the music
was really loud.

GROSS: My guest is David Johansen. We'll talk more after a break.

This is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: My guest is David Johansen. He was one of the founding members of
The New York Dolls. Their reunion performance has been released on a new CD
and DVD.

I want to skip ahead to the '80s and '90s when you performed a lot as Buster
Poindexter. And, you know, The New York Dolls were so into a kind of pre-punk
sensibility and were very high energy and very raw. And, you know, Buster
Poindexter is much more of a kind of lounge, more Vegas oriented kind of
persona. You know, instead of in drag on the cover, you know, the Buster
Poindexter character is in a tuxedo. And...

Mr. JOHANSEN: It's all drag, Terry.

GROSS: Well, that's the thing. No, no, but that's exactly the thing. I
just...

Mr. JOHANSEN: You know, I mean, Birkenstocks are drag. You know what I'm
saying? Everyone is like...

GROSS: Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Mr. JOHANSEN: Everybody is saying something with their clothes, you know.
So...

GROSS: So have you always felt like you were standing back and knowing that
any kind of drag that you were putting on, any kind of outfit or whatever you
were putting on for a performance was always that, that you always knew it was
some kind of drag or another?

Mr. JOHANSEN: Yeah. Yeah. You know, the thing that Poindexter--there was
a little club, like a saloon, an Irish bar around the corner from my house. I
was living in Grammercy Park; it was two blocks from my house. And it was
kind of like my watering hole. And they would have bands there like Joe
Turner or Charles Brown or Big Mabel(ph), and they would do residencies
there. So they would play like three or four nights a week for a month, say,
you know, and there was a room upstairs where they would live.

Monday night the back room was dark, so I had decided I was going to do this
little, like, roads--barrel house, kind of roadhouse show where I could just
sing whatever songs I wanted to sing. And I was going to do it for four
Mondays. And I went in there, and I figured I'd use a pseudonym so people
wouldn't be coming in screaming for, you know, `"Pokey Butt Cheek."'(ph) So I
went in to do that, and I just picked whatever songs. I had been listening to
a lot of jump blues at the time, but I also did, you know, like "The Seven
Deadly Virtues" from Camelot and, you know, just whatever songs I wanted to
sing.

And by the end of four weeks, I started doing weekends, and it just kind of
organically built into this--it started out as a three-piece band and wound up
as like a 15-piece band. So I think by the time it got to the national
awareness, it did have this kind of Vegasy kind of idea to it, but it started
off more kind of like the Louie Prima days in the '50s of Vegas. You know
what I'm saying?

GROSS: Right, right, right. Well, that image was encouraged--like on the
cover of the Buster Poindexter album, you're drinking a martini...

Mr. JOHANSEN: Right. Right.

GROSS: ...in a tuxedo with your pinkie ring.

Mr. JOHANSEN: And then I was back on--see, I was walking to work. I was
making a nice living, and then we had a hit and, you know, it all went to hell
because we had to go back on the road.

GROSS: Right. Well, I want to play something from the Buster Poindexter era
and...

Mr. JOHANSEN: Don't play "Hot Hot Hot."

GROSS: No, I wasn't going to. I was going to play...

Mr. JOHANSEN: Thank God.

GROSS: You're really tired of it?

Mr. JOHANSEN: It's the bane of my life.

GROSS: Oh. I was going to play "Bad Boy."

Mr. JOHANSEN: OK.

GROSS: Tell me why you recorded this. This is a cover.

Mr. JOHANSEN: Well, I don't know. It's just a good song. It was written by
Lil Armstrong. I always liked it ever since I was a kid.

GROSS: Yeah. OK. Well, let's hear it. This is from the "Buster Poindexter
Album."

(Soundbite of music)

Mr. JOHANSEN: (Singing) Bad boy, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la,
all dressed up in fancy clothes. I've taken the trouble to change my night
into day. You know that old hot, blazing sun? He ain't gonna hurt my head
'cause you know he's going to find me right there in the shade. I can see all
the folks--I can see they all--ha, ha--laughing at me 'cause I'm just
naturally crazy, lazy. Bad boy...

GROSS: That's "Bad Boy" from David Johansen's album "Buster Poindexter."
David Johansen is my guest. And his first band The New York Dolls has a
reunion concert that was just released on CD and DVD.

It seems to me that you've had so many different characters you've inhabited
as a performer. And I'm wondering how much you think your career as an actor
has come into play in your career as a musician, you know? Because before you
were even in The New York Dolls, you were with the Ridiculous Theater Company
in New York, and over the years you've been in, you know, a lot of movies as
well.

Mr. JOHANSEN: Yeah. I guess, you know, there's a lot of kind of acting
involved. You know, I have this friend Elliott Murphy, who's a singer. He
lives in Paris now. And I remember when I started doing Buster Poindexter, he
used to say to me, `David, you know, Buster Poindexter is so much more like
you than David Johansen is,' you know, if you get what I'm saying. In other
words, with Buster I really kind of went on stage and really didn't edit
myself and just kind of said whatever came to my mind and didn't have many
filters, whereas prior to that in the period of my--I guess you would call it
solo career, although, you know, you're always in a band, so it's never really
a solo career. But I had the David Johansen group or band or whatever it was
called, and we used to open for a lot of bands in hockey rinks, you know.

And you kind of go out there--at that point I was going out there and kind of
presenting this what I thought, like, ideal picture of myself. You know what
I mean? Just this pleasant fellow, you know, whereas Buster was really kind
of more warts and all, you know? And I think by doing that, it helped me to
be myself more, you know, whereas--so now when I go on stage I'm not like
biting my nails. I go like, `What am I going to do? How am I going to be?'
blah, blah, blah. I just don't even think about it because I'm just going to
go out there and essentially be whoever I am at that moment. You know what
I'm saying?

GROSS: Yeah. You once said back in the Buster Poindexter era, `Buster can
have this great life in the public eye and take the rap for everything, and
then David can go home.'

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. JOHANSEN: Exactly. You know, it's funny because my mother when Buster
came out, she said, `You know, this is the most genius idea you've ever come
up with. This is great.' And I think that was her idea that, you know,
Buster could take the rap. And politicians should do it.

GROSS: Now you have a show on SIRIUS, which is one of the satellite radio
stations.

Mr. JOHANSEN: Oh, yeah.

GROSS: Who are you as a deejay? Are you just yourself, or do you have a...

Mr. JOHANSEN: I have a show called "The Mansion of Fun," and I'm kind of
like Shree Rama Poindexter Johansen. And I'm very taken with Shree Rama
Kirshna lately because I read a biography of his and thought, `Man, that guy
knew how to live.' And he called the planet the mansion of fun, so I've named
my show after that. And I play a really diverse bunch of music. You know, I
play salsa, opera, blues, rock 'n' roll, you know, you name it. I play a lot
of Nino Rota music. I play, you know, whatever tickles my fancy. So it's
really completely free form. And I speak a lot of kind of Ken Wilbur(ph)-type
forward-thinking philosophy.

GROSS: Well, David Johansen, great to talk with you. Thank you so much.

Mr. JOHANSEN: Thank you, Terry.

GROSS: And when is The Dolls' next performance?

Mr. JOHANSEN: I hear rumblings that we're going to be going around in the
States--I don't know how extensively--in February.

GROSS: David Johansen was the lead singer of The New York Dolls. Their
reunion CD is called "The Return of The New York Dolls: Live from Royal
Festival Hall."

(Soundbite of music)

THE NEW YORK DOLLS: (Singing) It doesn't pay to try all the best bars in your
life. Doesn't mean I didn't try. Lord knows I tried and tried. So cold and
all alone, beat myself against the wall. Even when I'm home I'm not alone.
(Unintelligible) still alone 'cause you can't put your arms around a memory.
You can't put your arms around a memory. I can't put my arms around a
(unintelligible). So don't try, don't try.

GROSS: Coming up, we remember mystery writer Joseph Hansen, who has died
at the age of 81. He created one of the genre's first gay private eyes. This
is FRESH AIR.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Profile: Remembering Joseph Hansen, who died in November at the
age of 81
TERRY GROSS, host:

We learned today that mystery writer Joseph Hansen died of heart failure on
November 24th at the age of 81. Hansen created one of the first gay private
eyes in the genre, the character Dave Brandstetter. Before writing 12
Brandstetter novels, Hansen wrote gay-themed literature under the pen name
James Colton. He helped found the first Gay Pride parade in Hollywood in
1970. I spoke with Hansen in 1988 after the publication of "Obedience,"
his 10th Brandstetter mystery. Like his previous books in the series,
"Obedience" was set in Los Angeles, where Hansen lived. As the book opens,
Brandstetter, who is in his 60s, has decided to make a change.

(Soundbite of 1988 interview)

Mr. JOSEPH HANSEN (Author): (Reading) `He was quitting, but notifying all the
insurance companies in the West he'd done death-claims investigations for in
recent years turned out to be a long job. He had sat down to do it after
lunch and was still typing away in a lonely little island of lamp light in a
looming raftered room when Cecil Harris walked in at midnight. A field
reporter for television news, the tall, lanky, young black lived with Dave.
He ambled down the room, glanced over Dave's shoulder as he passed the desk,
hung his jacket on the hat tree and rattled glasses and bottles at the bar.'

GROSS: Now Dave Brandstetter, the hero of your novels, is gay, and I was
wondering why you created a gay character to work within the detective genre.

Mr. HANSEN: Well, it's a subject that I--well, I'm homosexual, and so I
figured that I wanted to write about that. I had hoped by writing about
homosexuals in a mystery novel to draw readers to read painlessly and with
some fun, some recreation about a subject they know very little about, in my
judgment, and so that's why I decided on the mysteries. Of course I like the
mystery form very much anyway and always have, but this was a deliberate plan.
And also I wanted to--I thought there are a lot of small jokes hidden in the
first novel, "Fadeout," and among them is the idea that--of giving to a
homosexual the toughest job that genre fiction provides, that of a private
eye.

GROSS: Now some detective writers really don't like to give their characters
much of a private life. Ross MacDonald, I think, is a good example of that.
How much of David Brandstetter's life--private life--do you like to put into
your novels?

Mr. HANSEN: As much as they will bear. I think a character is far more real
who has everyday problems to solve, who has a love life and a home life and
things going on for him. I always felt that lack in the Lew Archer books.
And I wanted it also to be ongoing, and it has been. He's--people come and go
in his life, and he's grown older.

GROSS: Your first Dave Brandstetter novel was written in 1967. You probably
knew at that time that having a gay main character would probably be pretty
controversial in publishing circles. How did you first describe him? How did
you first introduce the fact that he was homosexual in the novel?

Mr. HANSEN: His lover has just died, and I simply say that, perhaps not that
simply, but that's what has happened. And I didn't make any bones about it.
I just wrote about him as he was. And it took a while to find a place for
that book, but ultimately Joan Kahn, the prominent, very famous and
deservedly so mystery editor was then with Harper & Row, saw the book and
liked it very much; made no comment at all about the leading character being
homosexual. And I thought she had a lot of guts and a lot of courage to
publish the book, and the rest is history.

GROSS: Didn't you have an early novel that ended up getting published by a
publisher who wanted to turn it, basically, into a pornographic novel?

Mr. HANSEN: "Always." Yes, I did. It was published, and the publisher asked
me to add graphic sex scenes to it and I did. And the book has been--What was
it?--about nine years later the same editor at the same house came back to me
and said, `Gee, we would really like to republish that book and publish it
this time the way you wrote it.' So it was published again, and now it is in
the shops one more time. The title is "Pretty Boy Dead," and that was my
first attempt at a mystery novel.

GROSS: Were you glad to take out those explicit sex scenes, or were you sorry
to see them go?

Mr. HANSEN: No, no, I was glad to take them out. People just wear out
certain portions of a book and don't read the rest of it if you put that kind
of scene in.

GROSS: Joseph Hansen recorded in 1988. He died November 24th at the age of
81.

(Credits)

GROSS: I'm Terry Gross.
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